The Dreaded New Comer's Inquiry

[So So Whistler]

Hello C Net Folks:

 

As the user name suggests, I've been studying and playing Irish/Celtic music on the pennywhistle for about 8 years and would like to look into mangling tunes on yet another instrument--slowly and in the awareness that this is a big leap for me and that, other than perhaps a slight feel for the music, there is probably little or no 'carry over' from what I have learned in the six-hole arena. Alas, I think I need the 'whole 9 yards' that a new comer would be likely to inquire about, such as what is a decent entry level concertina--new or used--that would lend itself most readily to playing Irish music--my assumption is that it does not pay to start off cheap, though I do not need a Lexis where a decent Honda might suffice; what are the best 'bread and butter' instructional books--something analagous to Bill Ochs' fine Clarke Pennywhistle book, though in the concertina context, would probably be more than I could handle for a long time; are there instructors in the New York City area, and so forth.

 

If there are a few pre-existing threads--which I have not been able to locate yet--that address some of these entry level inquiries, I would appreciate it if someone could point me to them. My involvement with the pennywhistle, which began with a similar inquiry on Chiff & Fipple, has brought me much joy--though my wife may, from time to time, feel differently. Early on in that endeavor, I met with a concertina player in Brooklyn who painted an essentially bleak picture involving endless maintenance, broken reeds, etc., and I took that to heart and re-dedicated myself to the pennywhistle. I've perhaps picked up some tunes and some feel for the music in the interim and hope that, to some degree, that would assist in starting out with the concertina--at least it couldn't hurt, right? In any event, there's no fool like an aging fool and I want to look into the concertina.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

 

So So Whistler

(PS--how do you add an avatar or do you need some 'time in grade' first?)

[JimLucas]

...I think I need the 'whole 9 yards' that a new comer would be likely to inquire about,...

Short on time, so I'll let others tell you about instruments, instructional books and videos, past threads, etc. But...

 

...are there instructors in the New York City area, and so forth.

I don't know for sure, but there must be. Many years since I've been in New York, but you should inquire at the Irish Arts Center. I recall a couple of budding players hanging out at their sessions back then. More players on the English than on the anglo, as I recall, though I think one had started on the English, but at that point was switching to anglo. John Dillon (I haven't thought about him for some time) was a regular at another session, playing the English. Maybe he's still around?

 

And there are several individuals playing things other than Irish music -- e.g., song accompaniment, English country dance, Morris dance -- on concertina, mostly (but not all) on the English. Contact the NY Pinewoods Folk Music Club to inquire about them.

[Leo]

Hello C Net Folks:

 

If there are a few pre-existing threads--which I have not been able to locate yet--that address some of these entry level inquiries, I would appreciate it if someone could point me to them. My involvement with the pennywhistle, which began with a similar inquiry on Chiff & Fipple, has brought me much joy--though my wife may, from time to time, feel differently. Early on in that endeavor, I met with a concertina player in Brooklyn who painted an essentially bleak picture involving endless maintenance, broken reeds, etc., and I took that to heart and re-dedicated myself to the pennywhistle. I've perhaps picked up some tunes and some feel for the music in the interim and hope that, to some degree, that would assist in starting out with the concertina--at least it couldn't hurt, right? In any event, there's no fool like an aging fool and I want to look into the concertina.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

 

So So Whistler

(PS--how do you add an avatar or do you need some 'time in grade' first?)

 

Hi So So

 

On the top of the page see: My Controls. click on it then on the left you'll see manage avatar. It should work. You could also put in what part of the world you live in, and who knows somebody may be local that may notice it and offer some advice.

 

If you're asking about the search function on the top of the page, you could type in beginner and get about 350 items of various discussions or type in: +whistle +beginner (with plus signs) and get another bunch of information. Unfortunately the search function doesn't work with 3 or less letters so that leaves out the word "new". Another way would be to just go page to page and look at the titles. There are probably at least one on each page. If you go to my controls and then board settings change the number of posts and number of topics to 40 it might go a little quicker.

 

I'm not sure what kind of concertina Brooklyn had but if it's a china ebay cheapie then he might be correct (depending on how hard it's worked). A better made would last for a while with little maintenance. A case of you get what you pay for. Do you have a number in mind for how much you'd like to spend? The banner ads on these pages are all reputable manufacturers who stand behind their instruments.

 

For a suggestion have you checked out these three websites for lots of good information on learning and buying guides (the best on the web that I've found).

 

http://www.concertina.net/

http://www.concertina.info/

http://www.concertina.com/

 

That should keep you busy for a few minits until those more knowledgable than me to chime in and help.

 

Thanks

Leo

Edited October 7, 2006 by Leo

[Richard Morse]

what is a decent entry level concertina--new or used--that would lend itself most readily to playing Irish music--my assumption is that it does not pay to start off cheap, though I do not need a Lexis where a decent Honda might suffice

Irish music concertina players prefer 30-button C/G (the tuning of the main keys) anglo concertinas. Now prepare yourself for sticker shock.... A marginally decent "entry level" such concertina is a Stagi sells for about $600 - and that's considerably less akin to a Pinto made on the last shift on Friday than to a basic Honda. And if you do get that Stagi (new or used), I suggest you get it from a dealer that's gone over it for fit, tuning, leaks, action etc. as they tend to come almost non-functional from the factory and in really poor shape if used.

 

The Hondas of the concertina world are what we call "hybrids". These are currently-made (as opposed to vintage concertinas) with high quality materials, craftsmanship, and similar construction to vintage concertinas - all except for the reeds which are high quality accordion reeds rather than traditional type concertina reeds. These boxes are miles above the Stagi's and only a bit behind the better vintage instruments. Even better than a basic Honda. The US makers of these boxes are Edgley, Herrington, Morse, and Tedrow and run from $1500 to about $2400.

 

You can start out with the Stagi though chances are that you'll be moving on to a better box within a few months to a couple years. The difference between the Stagi and hybrids (or vintage boxes) is really astounding. I've heard people say that they had aquired bad habits from playing to compromise for Stagi's lacks which they had to UNdo in playing better boxes, and that their learning curve skyrocketed by having a better box. Plus they're so much more pleasing to play.

what are the best 'bread and butter' instructional books

I suggest The Anglo Concertina (Frank Edgley) and/or The Irish Concertina (Mick Bramich) which may also be available in music stores in your area.

 

Welcome to our forum and have a great time getting to know our beasts/pets!

 

-- Rich --

[Rhomylly]

there is probably little or no 'carry over' from what I have learned in the six-hole arena.

 

Only in that you already have some tunes in your head.

 

However, and I say this as a 3-year concertina player who tried pennywhistle for 3 months:

 

You might want to start out playing completely new-to-you tunes on your concertina, and avoid the ones you know how to play on your whistle -- for now.

 

Why?

 

Muscle memory.

 

The muscle sequences you use to play a tune on a pennywhistle are vastly different than the muscle sequences you will be learning to be able to play the same tune on a concertina. And it will slow you down.

 

Case in point: I first learned "Road to Linsdoonvarna" on pennywhistle. Learning it on the concertina was three times harder than it would have been if I'd never learned it on the whistle. Because the muscles remembered something completely different and kept trying to do that instead. The results were...scary.

 

Check out the Wakker Rochelle anglo concertina. I'm hearing good things about them, and they are not too expensive -- in our world, at least We're all used to paying considerably more than $15 for a quality instrument.

 

And welcome to the wonderful world of squeezing!

[So So Whistler]

Thanks for the fine information and good advice. I should have thought of the Irish Arts Center right off the bat--that's where the whistle instruction began. Lots to digest here. I appreciate the replies.

 

Thanks Again,

 

So So

[nalzalk]

rochelle is about $350(u.s). it what im playing

[jlfinkels]

Hello C Net Folks:

 

As the user name suggests, I've been studying and playing Irish/Celtic music on the pennywhistle for about 8 years and would like to look into mangling tunes on yet another instrument--slowly and in the awareness that this is a big leap for me and that, other than perhaps a slight feel for the music, there is probably little or no 'carry over' from what I have learned in the six-hole arena.

[snip]

 

Welcome! Like you I played pennywhistle and Irish flute for years before I switched to concertina. You'll be surprised by how much knowledge actually carries over to a new instrument. After you learn the instrument itself, you may find that the tunes you already know transfer fairly easily. I can't explain it, but I found that once I had the right notes under my fingers muscle memory took over and many tunes were there. Now the fingerings were rarely right since there are so many possibilities on concertina, but I could play the music. To me that was the hardest part of learning concertina. On whistle/flute there are rarely alternative fingerings, but on concertina there are different variations based on push/pull and what you want to emphasize in the music. It takes a while to learn them and a good teacher is well worth the money.

 

As far as instruments go, there is a definite sticker shock on concertina, but no worse than WHOA. I had a nice collection of whistles and flutes that I had collected over the years and sold. I found I had enough for a starter Lachenal and a new Tedrow. The difference of course is the addiction on concertina is quite a bit more expensive than whistles. Others have already suggested possible starter instruments and good websites/books. All I can add is once you start give yourself a chance to learn the instrument and enjoy yourself. Things won't happen quickly but once you catch on you should have a great time.

 

-jeff

[mthatcher61]

I am just starting on Concertina too and I have a Rochelle as well. I like it. Lots of bang for your buck. I didnt know how I was going to fare switching over to Concertina from my other instruments so I didnt want to spend a lot to find out it wasnt for me. Well, a month later and now I know it's for me. Hopefully in a year I'll be able to justify upgrading to one of those pretty ones with the shiny ends

 

Here is a great site with tons of good info on learning Anglo...

 

http://www.angloconcertinist.com/

Edited October 9, 2006 by mthatcher61

[Guest Mick Diles]

Here is a great site with tons of good info on learning Anglo...

 

http://www.angloconcertinist.com/

Terrible... my eyes still hurt

[Larry Stout]

I'd agree that the use of color is a bit over the top, but thee site looks like it has useful advice and information-- I've bookmarked it so I can go back with my EC in hand when I've got more time.

 

Thanks for pointing it out.

[m3838]

The site is interesting.

There is the problem, when he doesn't have all the information handy and sends a pupil to Google something. It can get quite disruptive. A good tutor should have all the material ready.

But for ocasional visits it's good. I too like Suzuki method. I have spoken to 4 teachers, and they all despise the method. But they despise it because it takes a pupil away from becoming score reading performance machine, and to me, didn't sound convincing.

[DavidFR]

The site is interesting.

 

But painful to read. Subdivisions would be immensely helpful.

 

I too like Suzuki method. I have spoken to 4 teachers, and they all despise the method. But they despise it because it takes a pupil away from becoming score reading performance machine, and to me, didn't sound convincing.

 

I first started on the Suzuki method with violin. I played violin/fiddle, clarinet, and sang for a number of years with organized groups, all of whom placed significant emphasis on ear learning as well as being able to read music. For whatever reason, I have turned out to be an ok music reader, and a pretty good ear learner.

 

And that's great, I can pick up on tunes pretty quickly. But especially for my morris playing, I wish I had paid more attention to theory class. When it comes to building chords and having them major/minor/diminished etc (along with that completely incomprehensible guitar-based tablature - what's a G7 supposed to be anyway? Isn't that where you put your peg in "Battleship?") I have not a clue. And I wish I did. So even if you focus on learning melody lines by ear, I suggest learning chord theory at the very least. Otherwise you'll have to play catch-up, like me.

[m3838]

One great method of learning circle of 5ths is Stradella bass in an Accordion.

Ab, Eb, Bb, F, C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#, G#/Ab

Melodeon gives you limited bass/chords options, but you can fumble around and find a reasonable (sometimes unusual) harmony without knowing what are you doing. Stradella gives you more organized and a less lively system of accompaniment, but in more keys. Again, one gets used to relying on it, and often accompaniment falls automatically. With Anglo one has to memorize seemingly random patterns for most chords, but it gives interesting array of chords in various, pretty random, order of inversions. A players has to rely on his ear, so the theory shouldn't help much untill the very high level of proficiency. the Duets and English are more like a Piano, there is an order, and a pattern, and all the inversions, in all keys - solid instruments, where one should learn a theory, I guess, or rely on somebody's arrangements and stick to the score. But what's wrong with that?

Am I wrong in my assumptions?