Is This Unusual, Or What?

[squeezegirl]

I've only had my Hayden Duet for a few weeks and I'm still trying to get the 'hang' of the keyboard.

 

I've played the Anglo for a longer time and can play most melodies straight off, on call... but I can't do this, as yet, on the Hayden.

 

Here's what I'm finding on the Hayden. Suppose I'm working on learning a new melody ...say: "Don't Cry for me Argentina." I've been working on this song for a few days and cannot yet play it note-perfectly yet.

 

But what I find is this... if I look at the keyboard (right hand) I make more mistakes than if I close my eyes! If I may make -say- 6 mistakes, looking at the keyboard... if I close my eyes I may make one! Or occasionally, none at all! ! ! !

 

Is this odd, or is the odd?

 

I'd appreciate some repartee from the Masters! Thanks!

 

By the way, look at a pic of me playing my box in the margin. It's bit small... I think if you'd click on it, it'll enlargen and you'll see more clearly the box I got from Button Box. !

 

Be of good cheer, y'all !

 

MC

[JimLucas]

Is this odd...?

Not odd at all.

[Cream-T]

Nope, perfeckly normal.

[PeterT]

I agree with Jim.

 

To a large extent, your ears will tell you where the fingers should go (assuming that you play "by ear"). On the Anglo, I don't know which notes I have on half of the buttons, but can remember the sound that I get by hitting the appropriate button, assuming that it is one which I use regularly.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[bill_mchale]

I don't think it is that unusual. I think what is happening is this. Since you are learning to play the tune by ear, it is your ear that is helping guide your fingers to the right button (hand-ear coordination as it were). When you are actually looking at what your fingers are doing your brain is trying to incorporate the visual signals into coordinating your fingers. Since the concertina doesn't provide that good of a view of the key board its lible not to be the best info. Ultimately it just causes your brain and your fingers to be confused... hence the larger number of mistakes.

 

--

Bill

[Rhomylly]

I *never* look at my fingers. If I'm working off "dots" I look at those until I don't need them any more, and then I get the stereotypical blank, drooling concertinist stare...

[Peter Brook]

I close my eyes quite a lot to sing and play. I find that it helps me concentrate. I don't know if there is any scientific evidence but some people believe that reducing one sense (sight say) improves the ability for the brain to process the remaining senses (hearing and touch in the case of concertina playing).

 

I agree with others as well that looking at fingers actually slows down learning of tunes, particularly when learning from music. I remember my piano teacher telling me off for looking at fingers when I was six and to "concentrate on the music and your hands will know where to go".

[Larry Stout]

When playing a concertina I can't see the buttons anyway in usual playing position, so the whole question of whether I'm looking at them or not is moot. I usually play from music rather than by ear, so I'm usually looking at the music. When I play fiddle by ear I usually stare at the bridge-- it must make me look rather cross eyed.

 

I think we've all agreed that it is normal not to look at your fingers when playing-- keeping eyes closed may help you concentrate on the sound.

 

Sometimes when I'm trying to learn a tune from someone else's playing I concentrate on their fingers. Surprizingly, this even works if they are playing a different kind of instrument. I guess I pick up some visual clues on what direction the tune is going. Does anyone else get the chords by watching the guitarist's fingers?

[JimLucas]

I close my eyes quite a lot to sing and play. I find that it helps me concentrate. I don't know if there is any scientific evidence but some people believe that reducing one sense (sight say) improves the ability for the brain to process the remaining senses (hearing and touch in the case of concertina playing).

There's also the matter of the body and brain naturally following familiar paths. If I try to feel my way through a pitch-dark room (or forest) with my eyes open, I find myself clumsily bumping into things. But if I close my eyes, I find my way much more smoothly. I suspect that's because my brain is so used to using my eyes when they're open that it tries to depend on them even when there's not enough light, but that it has long experience "knowing" that it can't do that when the eyes are closed, so it directs more attention to the other senses

 

What other tasks do you perform where you look at your hands in order to direct them? Your brain probably has a habit of "either-or", not "both-and".

 

I agree with others as well that looking at fingers actually slows down learning of tunes, particularly when learning from music. I remember my piano teacher telling me off for looking at fingers when I was six and to "concentrate on the music and your hands will know where to go".

Well, it's extremely difficult with a piano to look at both the music and the fingers at the same time. You have to keep looking back and forth. With a concertina it's not even possible to look at the fingers on both ends at once. And if you do look at your fingers on the buttons, in order to see them don't you have to twist the instrument at least a little from the position when you're not looking? Don't you think that has some effect on your ability to manipulate the buttons?

[Peter Brook]

I agree with all that Jim, for me it is a distraction to look at the concertina. I certainly don't get any benefit from twisting the instrument to check which button my finger is over. I believe that what we are actually describing is the development of muscle memory in parallel with aural memory.

 

As a parallel to walking in the darkened woods and trusting your instincts, I began jogging last year in woods near here. The ground is very uneven and there are lots of ruts, puddles and branches. I have actually found it is easier to keep my footing by looking ahead 15 to 20 metres and relaxing rather than worrying where my foot will land each stride. It is actually easier to run in the woods than it is to walk

[Jody Kruskal]

Interesting discussion. I also don’t look at the buttons when playing. Where I do look seems to make a big difference in how I sound. I love to close my eyes and get into that personal sound world where it seems like I’m visualizing the music in some weird way. It’s a heightened tactile sensation, a peculiar and pleasant state.

 

On the other hand, if I’m playing with my band, the results are much better if I keep my eyes open and look at the faces of the other musicians. Just last week I was recording with a fiddler for my next CD of old time concertina tunes. When I closed my eyes I was audibly disconnected with the rhythm he was playing, and when I looked at him we locked in.

[malcolm clapp]

My worst experience when looking at the concertina whilst playing was with one of Colin Dipper's 10 sided boxes. Played it perfectly well when not looking, but as soon as I looked at the keys my fingers were all over the place. Probably something to do with the orientation of the keys in relation to the shape or the angle of the edges. Have never had the problem with a 4, 6, 8 or 12 sided concertina. (Not that I look at the keyboard excessively when playing, but just the odd glance....)

 

A similar experience was playing a Scandalli Scott Wood piano accordion with a curved treble keyboard. Fine as long as I didn't look at the treble keys, but all at sea if I did.

 

Maybe this would have been resolved with more time to practice with them....

 

 

MC

Edited May 12, 2006 by malcolm clapp

[Henrik Müller]

...

I love to close my eyes and get into that personal sound world where it seems like I’m visualizing the music in some weird way.

...

Agree, agree! With eyes open, it is easier to be distracted by incoming visuals and start thinking ("What am I doing here, alone, in front of these people?!")

...

On the other hand, if I’m playing with my band, the results are much better if I keep my eyes open and look at the faces of the other musicians.

...

That's it - then one needs all incoming signals.

/Henrik

[frogspawn]

I sing solo with my eyes closed which was, I understand, pretty prevalent amongst traditional singers, but I suppose I open them more with chorus songs because I'm not in a private world then. Of course, modern entertainers (as opposed to folk singers) are obliged to communicate visually with their audiences if not to dance at the same time!

 

I never look at my fingers when playing except when I'm first learning and I miss the button altogether. The rest is all by ear.

 

Richard

Edited May 12, 2006 by frogspawn

[Mark Evans]

I sing solo with my eyes closed which was, I understand, pretty prevalent amongst traditional singers, but I suppose I open them more with chorus songs because I'm not in a private world then. Richard

 

I thought a lot about your statement Richard. Eyes open or closed are not the point I think. Certainly Doc Watson hasn't found blindness or his eyes closed an obstacle to communication. Communication being most folks general goal or unsupressable need.

 

In my experience I've been moved to close my eyes is when I needed to take a step back from an audience and protect myself either because of a vocal problem or because I felt emotionally fragile.

 

Honestly, I have not noticed a prevalence of folk singers closing their eyes and will now pay more attention.

[chris]

I find that I need to sing/play with my eyes closed, to reduce distractions, however then I find that the thought 'this isn't going to badly' seems to drift into the forefront of my mind, and almost instantly, disconnects my brain from my fingers and vocal chords. This may be a function of age! I also noticed that playing an instrument and singing, in the past, was relatively easy, now doing the two things together is getting more and more difficult! Age again! It occurs to me that growing old is a right pain.

Chris

[frogspawn]

I thought a lot about your statement Richard. Eyes open or closed are not the point I think. Certainly Doc Watson hasn't found blindness or his eyes closed an obstacle to communication. Communication being most folks general goal or unsupressable need.

 

In my experience I've been moved to close my eyes is when I needed to take a step back from an audience and protect myself either because of a vocal problem or because I felt emotionally fragile.

 

Honestly, I have not noticed a prevalence of folk singers closing their eyes and will now pay more attention.

 

We should always question the things we take for granted, so although I mostly sing with my eyes closed and I've noticed others that do it too, I just did a quick Google for references. Amongst others I came across this description of a traditional singer on the Mustrad website (http://www.mustrad.org.uk/news17.htm): "I had noticed the huge man who had stood at the back talking to nobody, but taking a great interest in what was going on, when the compere called on him to offer a song. No reply, yes or no, just a long gap as Gordon seemed to hunch himself up, lean against the wall, screw his eyes closed and then launch into General Wolfe. Listening to him that first time was not an easy experience. It was like being hit by an emotional sledgehammer, such was the power and poignancy of his performance."

 

I also note that this sort of thing is not recommended by those giving advice on singing styles, but I reckon it's all about the singer being engaged with the song, more, perhaps, than with the audience. This doesn't surprise me and does seem to differentiate trad folk singers from modern entertainers.

 

I haven't got it to hand, but I can remember reading something (maybe in the notes to Joe Heaney's 'Road From Connemara' about Irish singers, who - if invited to sing at 'the big house' - actually turned their backs on their local lords and masters when performing. I don't think this was a matter of respect or disrespect, but of deliberate detachment.

 

Richard

Edited May 12, 2006 by frogspawn

[Mark Evans]

"I had noticed the huge man who had stood at the back talking to nobody, but taking a great interest in what was going on, when the compere called on him to offer a song. No reply, yes or no, just a long gap as Gordon seemed to hunch himself up, lean against the wall, screw his eyes closed and then launch into General Wolfe. Listening to him that first time was not an easy experience. It was like being hit by an emotional sledgehammer, such was the power and poignancy of his performance."

 

Richard

 

That is a powerful discription. Grabbed my by the the throat it did.

 

At the session I attend, the singers when called on do in a way put their backs to the audience. We sit in our circle singing and playing with an inward intention. Listen or don't outside the circle, yer' welcome. One lady amongst our number stands and faces the audience, closes her eyes and holds forth with a powerful voice and well felt words. She shakes a bit, I suspect from nerves, but there she is pouring it out. The act of singing is such a personal thing and requires great courage.

 

On singers putting their backs to the lords and landowners: perhaps they wanted to veil their hatered. Very interesting all this.