Transposing Instruments & Keys

[Daniel Hersh]

Very informative post, Jim! Where did you learn all that? I thought I was pretty well-rounded musically, but only knew maybe half of it already...

 

Back in the concertina world, I would add that Chemnitzers and Anglos are also routinely made in multiple keys, as clarinets, for example, used to be. Chemnitzers are particularly odd in the way their key is described. A Chemnitzer with its "home" rows in the keys of A and G is described as being in C, probably because its lowest note on the right-hand (melody side) is middle C. But it's actually most easily played in A, D and G, not in C, and the same instrument is also described as being in the key of "5 press A" because if you press button number 5 on the bass side you get an A. If you really want to play in C, you're better off with an instrument in "B flat" aka "5 press G."

 

Daniel

 

...a transposing instrument is one which is set up to play in a key that it is NOT otherwise standardly in.

Why build a box that way, what is the advantage. Why not just play in the key of F, for example, on a box in a standard key?

Rich's answer is incomplete. The reasons are human and cultural, and almost certainly started with wind instruments (flutes, trumpets, clarinets, etc.).

 

Instruments come in families with different ranges. If you want a flute or trumpet that plays lower notes than the standard, you get a bigger flute or trumpet, a longer tube producing lower notes (or smaller, shorter for a higher range). But then the same fingering will produce different notes. If you want to be able to write down the music for both instruments so that they'll both play a piece in the same key, there are two solutions:

... One is to always write the notes just as they sound, but learn a different fingering for each instrument. E.g., the note D on a D whistle is obtained by covering all 6 holes (3 fingers in each hand), but on a G whistle it's only the top 2 holes (2 fingers of the left hand).

... The other is to write (and read) the music so that the same fingering is always indicated by the same written "note". That results in a different note sounding on each instrument, but it means that the player only needs to learn one pattern of correspondence between what's written and what the fingers do. And that is what is known as a transposing instrument. In the above example, music written specially for use with the G whistle would indicate an A, since the same fingering which produces an A on the D whistle will produce a D on the G whistle.

 

Historically, some families of instruments have tended to use the first system, while others have favored the second.

... The recorder (block flute) family uses the first system, more or less. An alto recorder is pitched in F, i.e., the fingering that would produce a C on a soprano or tenor recorder produces an F on the alto. But the sound C is still written as C for the alto, and one learns that this requires a different fingering than on the soprano. (The "more or less" above is that for the same written note the soprano and tenor sound notes an octave apart. What's written as middle C for the soprano actually sounds an octave higher, but it's still a C.)

... Music for the viol family is also normally written just as it sounds. E.g., the viola sounds a fifth lower than the violin, but a low C on the viola is notated as such, not as if it were a low G on the violin.

... An exception to this is found in some people's notation of traditional fiddle music where the fiddle is in non-standard tuning. E.g., if the bottom string is tuned to A rather than G, then the notes A-B-C# will be written as G-A-B, because those fingerings will produce the desired notes. (Played as written on an instrument which is in standard tuning, the result can be bizarre. )

... Because they were neither chromatic nor tempered, early brass and woodwinds were generally made with separate instruments for each key in which they were to be played. To standardize the notation, certain fingerings were designated "C", regardless of what pitch they actually produce. For woodwinds, it's "all 7" holes closed (with the result that on flutes and whistles with only 6 holes, the lowest fingering is "D"). For brass instruments, it's an "open" (no valves depressed) tonic. Thus, e.g., on a Bb trumpet the open "C" is really a Bb.

... This practice has continued to this day, even though most orchestral instruments are now fully chromatic and at least nominally in equal temperament. Each type of instrument has mostly been standardized to certain pitches: trumpets and clarinets are in Bb; flutes and oboes are in C; English horns and French horns are in F; alto clarinets and alto saxophones are in Eb; alto flutes are in G; etc. Why the different types of instrument have been standardized in these disparate keys, I don't know. One can also find clarinets in A or C -- and parts written for them, -- trumpets in C or D, etc., but they're much less common.

... For some strange reason, "transposing" bass instruments still have their music written in "true" pitch. I.e., the open Bb on a trombone, tuba, or baritone horn is written in the bass clef as Bb, not as C, though baritone horn parts are sometimes written in the treble clef, and then the Bb is written as a C. Weird?

 

This finally brings us to why one might want a "transposing" concertina. At one point, concertina marching bands were popular in England. It was easy for them to use already-published music written for "brass" bands (which usually included a few other instruments, especially flutes), but many of those parts were written in transposed notation for instruments in Bb (trumpet), Eb (alto horn), etc. So to play those parts correctly one would need to either learn a transposed fingering or get a transposing instrument.

 

Why not just play all those Bb parts on C instruments, so the entire arrangement is transposed up a step? Well, the first problem is the Eb parts; to play them in the proper relative key, you'd need a concertina in F. Hmm, isn't that just the tenor concertina the Button Box has for sale at the moment?

 

There's also the problem that the bass parts are not written transposed, so players of baritone and bass parts would then have to transpose their parts. (Also, anyone playing from a flute part would either have to transpose or get a concertina pitched in D.) So some bands had made entire sets of instruments deliberately pitched in Bb and Eb.

 

By the way, I have taken this idea of transposing instruments in the other direction. Reading fiddle or flute music on a Bb trumpet or soprano saxophone requires transposing, and I don't play these instruments frequently enough to be good at that. Instead, I've gotten both a trumpet and a sax pitched in C.

Edited April 30, 2006 by Daniel Hersh

[Theodore Kloba]

Back in the concertina world, I would add that Chemnitzers and Anglos are also routinely made in multiple keys, as clarinets, for example, used to be. Chemnitzers are particularly odd in the way their key is described. A Chemnitzer with its "home" rows in the keys of A and G is described as being in C, probably because its lowest note on the right-hand (melody side) is middle C. But it's actually most easily played in A, D and G, not in C, and the same instrument is also described as being in the key of "5 press A" because if you press button number 5 on the bass side you get an A. If you really want to play in C, you're better off with an instrument in "B flat" aka "5 press G."

I always figured the "key of C" designation in Chemnitzers came from the wind instruments, not the lowest note as instruments in different keys predated that keyboard layout.

 

Sheetmusic for Chemnitzer is just like for winds: If I have a "key of C" horn, a "key of C" Chemnitzer and a piano, the note that's written as C will sound the same on all three instruments. A Bb chemnitzer will be reading music in the same key as a Bb clarinet, which will be written a whole tone higher (2 more sharps) than the music for the piano.

 

That is to say: Regardless of the key of your Chemnitzer, when you read "C" in the right hand on draw, you're playing button #3; the tone that comes out might be correspond to a piano's F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, etc., depending on the key of the instrument.

[stuart estell]

The other interesting exception is the way brass band parts are written for low instruments. Everything is treble clef. So, a Euphonium part in Bb will sound a 9th lower than it's written. With the tubas it's even more entertaining: a middle C in a EEb tuba part will sound as the Eb below the bass clef stave, and with BBb tubas, middle C sounds the Bb a fourth lower than that.

 

Again, of course, it's cultural. Brass bands traditionally were community ventures, so you'd frequently get a third cornet player dropping down to a lower instrument to fill in gaps in the band. The way the lower parts are written means that not only do the fingerings stay the same relative to the home key of the instrument, but also that no-one even has to learn another clef!

 

I said on the other thread that because I have absolute pitch I have problems playing from transposing scores, and, in fact as I read them I have to transpose them back to pitch in my head before I play anything. EEb tuba parts are OK working in reverse as the notes occupy the same vertical space on the stave - all you do is subtract three sharps from (or add three flats to) the key-signature. When I was (briefly) playing Euphonium, it was much harder...

Edited May 2, 2006 by stuart estell

[Daniel Hersh]

You're right re the sheet music of course, and you know far, far more than I do about Chemnitzer history. But I'm a little surprised that a "Bb" Chemnitzer would be the one normally played with Bb instruments, if that's what you're saying. It would certainly work better than one in "C"...but wouldn't one in "Ab" (5 press F, with the home rows in F and Eb) be better still, if you could find one?

 

I always figured the "key of C" designation in Chemnitzers came from the wind instruments, not the lowest note as instruments in different keys predated that keyboard layout.

 

Sheetmusic for Chemnitzer is just like for winds: If I have a "key of C" horn, a "key of C" Chemnitzer and a piano, the note that's written as C will sound the same on all three instruments. A Bb chemnitzer will be reading music in the same key as a Bb clarinet, which will be written a whole tone higher (2 more sharps) than the music for the piano.

 

That is to say: Regardless of the key of your Chemnitzer, when you read "C" in the right hand on draw, you're playing button #3; the tone that comes out might be correspond to a piano's F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, etc., depending on the key of the instrument.

[Theodore Kloba]

You're right re the sheet music of course, and you know far, far more than I do about Chemnitzer history. But I'm a little surprised that a "Bb" Chemnitzer would be the one normally played with Bb instruments, if that's what you're saying.

That wasn't what I was saying...

Any instruments could be (and are) played together, as long as somebody's transposing; at my club, we all play C (5 press A) instruments because everybody has one. We have a sax/clarinet player in the group who has to play in some odd keys, e.g. If I'm playing in A, he has to play his Eb sax in F#. There isn't a lot of orchestrated sheetmusic out there, so he's transposing in his head or playing by ear.

It would certainly work better than one in "C"...but wouldn't one in "Ab" (5 press F, with the home rows in F and Eb) be better still, if you could find one?

Yes, Ab is a fairly popular key. I've also seen F, Bb, Eb and Db.

[David Barnert]

The other interesting exception is the way brass band parts are written for low instruments. Everything is treble clef...

Not just band parts. Think about guitar music. The guitar has roughly the same range as the cello, but the music is notated in the treble clef, an octave higher than it sounds.

[stuart estell]

The other interesting exception is the way brass band parts are written for low instruments. Everything is treble clef...

Not just band parts. Think about guitar music. The guitar has roughly the same range as the cello, but the music is notated in the treble clef, an octave higher than it sounds.

 

Yes, but the interesting thing about band parts is that they transpose as well as using an octavo/double octavo clef.

[Samantha]

The other interesting exception is the way brass band parts are written for low instruments. Everything is treble clef. ....

Everything except the bass trombone.

 

...I said on the other thread that because I have absolute pitch I have problems playing from transposing scores, and, in fact as I read them I have to transpose them back to pitch in my head before I play anything. EEb tuba parts are OK working in reverse as the notes occupy the same vertical space on the stave - all you do is subtract three sharps from (or add three flats to) the key-signature. When I was (briefly) playing Euphonium, it was much harder...

My partner has absolute pitch, and this was revealed when at primary school a school teacher played a middle C and asked the class what it was. Dave confidently replied "D" because he'd been fooling around on his sister's trumpet and that's what it is on the trumpet.

Samantha

[PeterT]

My partner has absolute pitch, and this was revealed when at primary school a school teacher played a middle C and asked the class what it was.

This reminds me of my formative years at Grammar School. I think that I knew as little about music as most of the class, but one day the music teacher hit a random note on the piano, and, pointing at me, said "Which note is that?". An involuntary response of "C, Sir." came out of my mouth. I presume that this was the correct answer, as the music teacher did not say anything else. To this day I do not know how I came out with the answer, as I knew nothing about musical theory.

 

Another of life's great mysteries. 39 years on, I still know virtually nothing about music, but it doesn't stop me playing; I guess that ignorance prevents you from worrying too much about your limitations, and, indeed, might even help your development/experimentation without considering what is "right", or "wrong".