Anglo Top - English Flop ?

[JimLucas]

Anybody besides Wim Wakker and me noticed the inconsistencies of the tone between octaves and rows in a concertina sound?

Here is the excerpt from Wim Wakker's intervew:

"From a technical point of view, concertinas have not developed much since the early 20th century. If you compare the concertina with other members of the free reed family (eg. accordion, bayan etc.) they are, with respect to some aspects, quite primitive.... Many concertinas have certain parts of their range that stand out/ don't blend in. They are sometimes brighter or louder than neighbouring notes. On most other musical instruments, this would not be acceptable. Even a Chinese piano has a better balance than many concertinas."

What I particularly notice about the quote from Wim, in spite of his "primitive" comment, is that he says "many concertinas", not "all concertinas". This is in fact my own experience.

 

Elsewhere in that same "interview", he says that he got started working on concertinas because his own instruments needed "restoring" when they came back from being "restored". But if he was able to do this, then that suggests to me that the fault was/is not inherent in the design of the instrument, but in the work that had been done on them.

 

I'm reminded of a comment by the late Paul Davies that for certain Wheatstone instruments he could tell you the name of the individual who had set the reeds, based on the way they responded when played. Even within Wheatstone during its best years, it seems, some indivuals were much more skilled than others.

 

As for Chinese pianos, the parts are much larger than in concertinas, so perhaps they are easier to adjust adeuately... even optimally? Certainly there is a much longer continuous tradition of experts passing on their experience to others than with concertinas. It's my understanding that nearly all of today's concertina restorers -- and even makers -- are self-taught, not trained by Wheatstone or Crabb.

[Mark Evans]

Now if a girl ever rips my shirt off because I play Irish Concertina, we might be able to revisit the issue .

 

Bill

 

I think we could do with a bit of levity 'bout now: I've never had a lady attempt to rip my shirt off, but just Saturday night at the Groton Bluegrass Jam as I slipped onto a stool for a libation and placed 'Tina on the bar in front of me. Two women came over with big grins. "What is that little instrument you've got there Magic Fingers?" Uh-oh! As the minstrals sang of Sir Robin, b*&%ing off and, running away". I stammered my explainations about the EC, slugged down the pint I intended to quaff in a semi-leisurly fashon and made like smoke. My compadres in the next room guffawed as I arrived back within the safety of the pickin' circle looking like a guilty dog .

 

Careful what you wish for Bill.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Mark Evans

[fiddlersgreen]

Talk about EC players, someone has a Sarah Graves's CD on Ebay. Actually three of the same. I already have that CD and she is very good and covers alot of different music genre. If I ever get across the pond I would love to see her perform. She said in an email that she rarely gets over to the US. Mike

[m3838]

To Jim:

We can be as knit-picky as we want, interpreting somebody else's words. The fact is - more is acceptable in concertina world than in accordion.

Your own mp3 show this very problem on low notes. Before you start throwing fireballs at me, I must say that your playing got me thinking about getting EC, esp. your melody line playing.

I personally don't care about very low and very high reeds in concertina. So far, even Dippers suffer from high reed choking, I heard. My bayan doesn't. So probably Wim is correct saying, that concertina needs a bit of R&D. May be this is the core reason for it's virtual absence as professional classical instrument.

And I agree with others, who's feeling is that EC doesn't cut it as Irish, or to me, as folk instrument. No matter what % of people play it at some local sessions. They have their own reasons, but whether they are good players, or whether their playing will land well among Irish music amateurs - different matter. As I demonstrated with my little Net research, looks like EC is not prevalent among professional folk performers. Exactly the original point of this thread.

Another reason of my thinking is this:

Can you provide with a list of schools, graduates and their CDs?

What if I will provide 5 accordion (waning instrument as well) schools per each EC?

The prove is in the pudding, right? So far EC is largely self-taught. In theory it should provide for larger variety of styles, but with lower class of playing. In general.

The school cuts down the variety, but supplies passing of a tradition, rises the level of acceptability, provides original compositions, sponsores concerts etc.

Does it exist?

 

To add:

Take a look at this address:

http://ptollemy.tripod.com/review/reviews.html

and count how many AC and EC represent Irish and English traditional music.

Definite prevalence of AC in Irish.

Why was my opinion called a "baloney", "false assumption", "sweeping generalisation"?

Edited January 31, 2006 by m3838

[Mark Evans]

Okay, okay, I gots one:

 

How do you know when a floor is perfectly level?

 

The fella playin' English has drool comin' outta both side a' his mouth...bada, boom!

[JimLucas]

How do you know when a floor is perfectly level?

 

The fella playin' English has drool comin' outta both side a' his mouth...bada, boom!

And the guy playing Irish?

Besides, I thought that was the guy playing BlewGrass.

 

(Yep, the "mis"interpretation was deliberate.)

[bill_mchale]

Now if a girl ever rips my shirt off because I play Irish Concertina, we might be able to revisit the issue .

 

Bill

 

I think we could do with a bit of levity 'bout now: I've never had a lady attempt to rip my shirt off, but just Saturday night at the Groton Bluegrass Jam as I slipped onto a stool for a libation and placed 'Tina on the bar in front of me. Two women came over with big grins. "What is that little instrument you've got there Magic Fingers?" Uh-oh! As the minstrals sang of Sir Robin, b*&%ing off and, running away". I stammered my explainations about the EC, slugged down the pint I intended to quaff in a semi-leisurly fashon and made like smoke. My compadres in the next room guffawed as I arrived back within the safety of the pickin' circle looking like a guilty dog .

 

Careful what you wish for Bill.

 

Well, Mark, if the women were attractive and single, I would certainly not have ran away.. but then again I am single. I am not sure whether you are or not.. or for that matter whether you found the women attractive or not.

 

--

Bill

[hjcjones]

And I agree with others, who's feeling is that EC doesn't cut it as Irish, or to me, as folk instrument. No matter what % of people play it at some local sessions. They have their own reasons, but whether they are good players, or whether their playing will land well among Irish music amateurs - different matter.

 

You appear to equate "folk" with "Irish". Bearing in mind that concertina players of any system were always in a minority, the EC was definitely used as a folk instrument in England, just as the Anglo was. In the modern folk revival, in my experience the EC is at least as popular as the Anglo and is used to play a wide range of music, not all of it traditional folk.

 

May be this is the core reason for it's virtual absence as professional classical instrument.

 

But none of the squeezebox family have found a place in the classical music world.

 

looks like EC is not prevalent among professional folk performers.

 

Well the number of folk performers who are professional in the sense of earning their living at it is a tiny minority of the total number of musicians. It is not just a question of talent - there are very many highly talented performers who have made the entirely rational decision to earn a decent living doing a "proper job" rather than scrape by as musicians. Many of the leading names in the English folk world, particularly on the dance band scene which is where many squeezebox players perform, are not professionals but do it as a paying hobby.

 

Given the strength of Irish culture worldwide I suspect there are slightly more opportunities to earn a living playing Irish music than other traditions, and this may skew the sample.

 

I don't believe a sample of professional players can safely be used to generalise about the whole concertina scene.

 

Take a look at this address:

http://ptollemy.tripod.com/review/reviews.html

and count how many AC and EC represent Irish and English traditional music.

Definite prevalence of AC in Irish.

 

Agreed. But this is not the same as saying that the Anglo is predominantly used for playing Irish music, which is what you appeared to be arguing earlier.

 

And with respect to Morgana, her list is far from being comprehensive. To give just 2 examples, there's no mention of Dick Miles or Steve Turner, both EC players

 

Howard Jones

Edited February 1, 2006 by hjcjones

[Mark Evans]

Well, Mark, if the women were attractive and single, I would certainly not have ran away.. but then again I am single. I am not sure whether you are or not.. or for that matter whether you found the women attractive or not.

 

--

Bill

 

I am very married and the ladies were comely, in my age group and very intent on having some sport with someone. They also must have been tubby chasers for me to have caught their fancy, a few more pints ahead of me, or was it the concertina...At any rate I feel sure some swain or other showed them a very good time indeed.

 

Jim it is funny that you mention blewgrass, for a fiddler refered to as Scratch and his wife called Screech, both of whom I prefere to avoid during actual music making, stood next to me as 10 of us hammered through an ugly, out control version of "Blackberry Blossom." At the end he couldn't help himself and said, "Mark you really blew me away...get it, blew me away!" It was time to go home and them some.

Edited February 1, 2006 by Mark Evans

[JimLucas]

We can be as knit-picky as we want, interpreting somebody else's words.

Which is why I try not to, and why I object when someone who didn't utter the words claims their interpretation is the only one.

 

Before you start throwing fireballs at me, I must say that your playing got me thinking about getting EC, esp. your melody line playing.

Thanks for the compliment.

 

Fireballs? At you? I didn't think I was, though I did express some strong sentiments about a couple of claims you made. I consider them to be separate from you as a person. Sorry if you felt otherwise.

 

So far, even Dippers suffer from high reed choking, I heard.

"Choking"? Reeds stopping, or not starting immediately, or significantly changing in sound quality under high pressure? I have just tried several instruments, and have been unable to find any of the high reeds -- not even those in the extended treble range -- that suffer from that, no matter how hard I push them. So I wonder whether you mean something else.

 

As I demonstrated with my little Net research, looks like EC is not prevalent among professional folk performers. Exactly the original point of this thread.

And since my own search demonstrated the opposite (I reported a search on anglo, but I also did one on English that produced results contrary to yours), I wonder what search engine you used?

 

Take a look at this address:

[Morgana's"review pages"]

and count how many AC and EC represent Irish and English traditional music.

Definite prevalence of AC in Irish.

Yet quite a different mix from what you reported earlier:

...search on the Internet under the prompt:

Anglo Concertina mp3 - Irish

Englsh Concerina mp3 - 90% Irish and the rest classical

Amazon.com "concertina" - Irish

So I think the whole concertina thing is Irish biased.

It's true that (nearly?) all the traditional Irish concertina players play anglo. I never disputed that, though I don't believe that the English is inappropriate or inadequate for Irish music, as some people claim. (In fact, 30 years ago I knew two New York Irish who played English, and only later met my first Irish anglo player.) But Morgana's listings -- which are still far from complete, and I'm fairly certain more complete for Irish players than for non-Irish -- show quite a few anglo players doing non-Irish music, contradicting your above claim and demonstrating that the particular search you did was biased, however unintentionally. Her compilation also fails to support your "90% Irish and the rest classical" conclusion for the English (though of the 22 persons and groups recording with English that I listed in an earlier post, she so far has only 6). Another useful place to search is CD Baby, the site where Jody Kruskal is selling his CD.

 

I'm not trying to claim that the English is better or that non-Irish is better, just trying to show you that your "statistics" so far have been unreliable... extremely unreliable. In statistical terms, I'll point out that your sample population is not representative of the worldwide population of concertina players. As another non-representative sample, the majority of concertina players that I know personally (I think about 100; I stopped counting at 60) wouldn't show up in any internet search for "concertina".

 

As a potential alternative to "Irish" the web site Alphabetic List of Morris and Sword Sides lists 968 Morris sides (mainly in the UK, many in the US, a few others). I don't know how many of them use concertina, but if it's even 10%, that's quite a few concertinas, especially since we know that some sides (hi, Lester!) use more than one concertina. Of course, there are also many Irish concertina players who haven't recorded.

 

Can you provide with a list of schools, graduates and their CDs?

If I could, I wouldn't. How is, "my instrument has more schools than your instrument" any different from "my Dad's bigger than your Dad"?

Edited February 1, 2006 by JimLucas

[Mark Evans]

It's a pity you now play a wooden-ended concertina. Imagine playing your repertoire on an instrument with blue anodized ends.

 

Arrgh!

[m3838]

>"Choking"? I have just tried ...

 

I read about this often been a problem. Glad your instruments don't suffer from it.

it wasn't my point though. My point was that concertina as an instrument can benefit from R&D and some makers even make a note of it's not been up to the level of today's requirements. You seem to disagree with it. OK. I think you're in denial.

 

>with my little Net research, looks like EC is not prevalent among professional folk performers. Exactly the original point of this thread.

 

>>And since my own search demonstrated the opposite

 

It is very interesting. I was saying that "I" associate concertina with AC for it's prevalence, Concertinas with Irish music, because it's where they are mostly used, and backed it up with my Net research, showing that:

1. Most professional concertinists play Irish

2. Most Irish concertinists play AC

You and some others seem to argue that EC is prevalent, and most of Irish players use EC.

OK, let's distinguish between professional recording artists and common folks. I accept that

A. in England most amateurs play Irish on ECs, but

B. I clearly see that most pros use AC for Irish music.

From prevalence of produced ACs I doubt that point "A" is correct either, but can't prove or disprove it. Just assume that most of the ACs sold go directly to garbage cans.

 

 

>So I think the whole concertina thing is Irish biased.

>It's true that (nearly?) all the traditional Irish concertina players play anglo.

 

>>I never disputed that,

 

Well, let's see.

You didn't dispute that AC is prevalent.

You can't dispute that concertina is irish biased.

Therefore you can't dispute that most of the folk performers on Concertina play Irish, and use AC.

But you claimed that your Net research proved exact opposite.

 

>though I don't believe that the English is inappropriate or inadequate for >Irish music, as some people claim.

 

If you mean it's me, who claim it, I was claiming exact opposite. My point is that EC is more than folk music needs. It's classical instrument and using it for folk is overkill. Precisely for this reason most folk concertinists use AC - it's more energetic, with easier harmony, more accentuated rhythm and easier to learn in home keys, which doesn't seem to bother folk musician. It's more universal and potent for folk music, than EC, which is much more potent instrument for most of other genres.

 

>But Morgana's listings -- which are still far from complete, and I'm fairly >certain more complete for Irish players than for non-Irish -- show quite a >few anglo players doing non-Irish music, contradicting your above claim

 

With which you agree.

My claim was not to find out the truth about EC vs. AC, but to back up assumptions that most people associate concertina with Irish music and most of those players use AC. Which you called "baloney". I did very quick search on the Net, pretending that I don't know who Jody Kruskal is and where to look. Very quickly I got many sites advertizing Irish and AC. Something that you "never disputed".

 

 

>your "statistics" so far have been unreliable,

>I'll point out that your sample population is not representative of the >worldwide population of concertina players.

 

I don't understand the term of "worldwide population of concertina players". Who cares about players? I was saying that most peope have certain assumptions about concertina, regardless of quantity and preferences of microscopit number of players.

I'm not a statistical office,

 

>As another non-representative sample, the majority of concertina players >that I know personally (I think about 100; I stopped counting at 60) >wouldn't show up in any internet search for "concertina".

 

Therefore re-inforcing perceptions of majority of simple people, who are the potential consumers of your music, but so far haven't being in contact with it, and still connect concertina (EC and AC alike) with clowns, monkeys and the city of Palermo (Or Milano).

 

>List of Morris and Sword Sides...use concertina,

 

Yes, perhabs. Moslty Anglo.

BTW, all my British friends have very ironic attitude towards Morris. So I'm not sure how really popular it is even in England, but I guarantee you, that Morris popularity wanes in geometric proportion with the distance from England. I'm not sure what are you trying to say, Jim.

 

>How is, "my instrument has more schools than your instrument" any >different from "my Dad's bigger than your Dad"?

 

Because you completely misunderstood my statement.

As classical instrument by design, EC needs the same attributes other classical instruments have, to be established as such. Pfew!

So far it is far behind, to the point that it will probably die again, if it's capacities will not be hot-roded.

For this, it absolutely must have different reeds, to appeal to majority of people, not only to admirers of Victorian aura: the sound must be bright, perhabs with the ability to bend. Number two, and a big TWO, it must have redesigned handle. Pefhabs redesigned valves, bigger to let more air through.

Amplified reeds, air valve lever instead of a thin button, larger buttons.

The school is essential too, because it will bring all of the above to life.

Have you ever listened to top knotch accordion player? Compared it to EC performer of the same acclaim? A pity really.

 

So the original question was "where are the EC performers?" and I sort of back it up. Out of all the examples you provided, none is on the level of, say, Gary Dahl (PA) or Fridrich Lips (bayan) or Peter Soave (CBA C system).

May be "English International" will answer this question. Let's see.

 

P.S

Sorry for unintentional misspelling of some names or terms.

Edited February 1, 2006 by m3838

[Guest]

I have been following this discussion with great interest, and as always on this site, am learning so much [thank everyone ]

 

Just a few words about my review site. The original listing back in November was mostly, if not all, Irish music played on Anglo concertina.

 

This was very much a reflection of my musical background. I have loved Irish music for a very long time, and was a profesional folk harp player for roughly ten years (playing mostly Irish music) before I took up the concertina. So it was a natural progression for me to start playing Irish music on concertina, which lead to collecting Irish music played on concertina. Thus the bias of the listing.

 

This bias was very quickly pointed out (and rightly so), and so I began to expand the list to include other genres. My intial learning curve was almost completely vertical, and I still have a long way to go. So as my musical journey continues my listings will probably still weigh heavily on the Irish side, hopefully eventually evening out a little.

 

The point of this long waffle is that whilst I think my listing is a good start, it is certainly in no way definative. I have been very fortunate to have a few friends who regularly write to me to point out errors, ommissions, or make suggestions and I really appreciate this feedback.

 

From a quick look at the list it certainly might seem that most "most professional concertinists play Irish". Or perhaps more accurately "there are more recordings currently available by concertina players who play Irish music". However again this reflection of my own knowledge may or may not be correct.

 

I am sure there are a lot of "professional" concertina players (i.e. players who make an income of some sort) from their playing who have not yet made recordings. I can only hope that they one day do so.

 

As for general perceptions... My introduction to the concertina world in general was this website. So I never thought of the concertina as an "Irish" instrument. In fact I knew almost nothing at all about concertinas before I played one for the very first time and then found this site.

 

So whilst I probably haven't added much knowledge to this conversation, I am certainly learning a lot, and again I thank you all.

 

[PS One of the best concertina players I ever had the fortune to see in action played Irish, English and European music like a master - on an English concertina!]

Edited February 1, 2006 by Morgana

[stuart estell]

As classical instrument by design, EC needs the same attributes other classical instruments have, to be established as such. Pfew!

 

I tend to try and stay out of these debates. However, as I don't play the English system I feel as though I can be a little more objective than usual

 

Anyway, an observation: what an instrument is designed for originally and how it can be used can be almost completely unrelated. Have you ever watched Warren Ellis of Nick Cave's group (The Bad Seeds) play his violin? The instrument (a fairly tatty-looking old acoustic fiddle) isn't really equipped for what he does with it (distortion, pitched feedback, playing it like a rhythm guitar etc), but he does it anyway. Another good example is Roger Bobo - an extraordinary classical tuba player, who produces all manner of sounds that the tuba was never intended for... harmonics and chords, squealing high notes, the works.

 

The important thing is that these guys push the boundaries of what their weapons of choice are commonly perceived as being able to do, while at the same time having limitations imposed on them by the fundamental character of the instrument. I firmly believe that the nature of an instrument is dictated not only by what it can do, but also by what it can't - limitations force us to be creative. If you don't perceive that boundary-pushing spirit to be widely associated with the EC, I don't believe it has much (if anything) to do with the character of the instrument itself, but may be more to do with the contexts in which the instrument is more commonly found these days. Which brings me on to...

 

So far it is far behind, to the point that it will probably die again, if it's capacities will not be hot-roded.

For this, it absolutely must have different reeds, to appeal to majority of people, not only to admirers of Victorian aura: the sound must be bright, perhabs with the ability to bend. Number two, and a big TWO, it must have redesigned handle. Pefhabs redesigned valves, bigger to let more air through.

 

There's no offence intended by this, m3838, but I wonder if I'm alone in the fact that my heart sinks when I read comments like this? If you hear really accomplished exponents of the instrument, like Douglas Rogers, Dave Townsend and Pauline de Snoo, you might change your opinion that it is the design of the instrument that needs "hot-rodding". There's no need to fix what isn't broken.

[JimLucas]

I don't understand the term of "worldwide population of concertina players". Who cares about players?

Oops! I seem to have fallen into the wrong discussion.

 

Alice, did you see which way that Rabbit went?

[stuart estell]

I don't understand the term of "worldwide population of concertina players". Who cares about players?

Oops! I seem to have fallen into the wrong discussion.

 

Alice, did you see which way that Rabbit went?

 

More importantly, which system of concertina does it play?

[hjcjones]

It is very interesting. I was saying that "I" associate concertina with AC for it's prevalence, Concertinas with Irish music, because it's where they are mostly used,

 

Well, that's your experience. Mine, and that of several others who have commented, is different

 

and backed it up with my Net research, showing that:

1. Most professional concertinists play Irish

 

No, it shows that most professional players of Irish music on concertina use AC

 

2. Most Irish concertinists play AC

 

Agreed

 

You and some others seem to argue that EC is prevalent, and most of Irish players use EC.

 

I'm not sure anyone has tried to argue this, simply to say that there are also plenty of people playing EC.

 

OK, let's distinguish between professional recording artists and common folks. I accept that

A. in England most amateurs play Irish on ECs,

 

it's probably truer to say that in England most amateurs (and professionsals and semi-pros for that matter) on EC play both English and Irish music. Most AC players play English music

 

You can't dispute that concertina is irish biased.

[/quote

I think that's exactly what we're all disputing. There's more to music, and more to folk music, than Irish. Your experience appears to be mostly with Irish music, so you're drawing conclusions from that.

 

Therefore you can't dispute that most of the folk performers on Concertina play Irish, and use AC.

 

Again, that's exactly what we're disputing. Folk performers on concertina play all three systems, and play a lot more than Irish.

 

My point is that EC is more than folk music needs. It's classical instrument and using it for folk is overkill.

 

You keep claiming it's a classical instrument, although you yourself say it never became established. Whatever Wheatstone's aspirations, it never became accepted for classical music, so how can it be a classical instrument? And if it were, why should that prevent it being used for folk music? Should someone tell all those fiddle players that a violin isn't suitable for folk?

 

Precisely for this reason most folk concertinists use AC

 

They don't, outside the world of Irish music they use all three systems. As I have previously pointed out, the EC as well as AC was played in England by traditional musicians, it hasn't just recently appeared in the folk revival

 

 

Therefore re-inforcing perceptions of majority of simple people, who are the potential consumers of your music, but so far haven't being in contact with it, and still connect concertina (EC and AC alike) with clowns, monkeys and the city of Palermo (Or Milano).

 

But in your post of Jan 29 you said "I'm just assuming that most of AC players play Irish music and most of the people WHO KNOW ABOUT CONCERTINAS (my emphasis) attribute them to Irish". People who don't know about concertinas probably have very different, and entirely wrong, perceptions, but that's not what we've been discussing.

 

As classical instrument by design, EC needs the same attributes other classical instruments have, to be established as such.

 

There are probably lots of reasons why EC never became established as a classical instrument, and quite possibly the defects you mention are some of them. To me, it seems probably that the main reason is simply that there isn't a place for it - the tone and range it offers is already covered by the violin family. The concertina simply doesn't fill a musical gap in the orchestra.

 

Howard Jones

[Henrik Müller]

"I will - repeat - will not be tempted to join in!"

 

...rushes out the office door, comes back 10 seconds later, sits down, looks at the Reply screen again, surpresses the urge, takes a deep breath... fingers are hovering above the keyboard, mimicking a concert pianist about to start... only to write:

 

Thanks, Howard - very well put!

 

/Henrik