Trying to learn how to write music for the Concertina

[JLAB9]

Hi, I'm a Pianist, Accordionist, and Amateur Composer. 

I don't play the Concertina, but I write orchestral-style scores and wanted to use a Concertina in one, hence my asking. 

I've been having trouble finding a consistent notation style online. Could someone send me an image of a Concertina score and explain to me what the different parts of the notation mean to a Concertina player? 

 

I understand that there are multiple varieties of Concertina also. Does the style of notation very between them? If it does then I am specifically looking for sheet music for bisonoric Concertinas. 
 

Many thanks for any help, I can't wait to start writing for your instrument. 

[seanc]

Not 100% sure how to answer this...

 But, it is going depend a LOT on what concertina you are writing for.

 

For an English, you can pretty much use a violin as the template. 

 

For a duet, you're generally going to run left hand bass cleff, right hand treble cleff.  But it is going to be helpful to know the range, generally you bottom out on the bass at C. and treble on an ocatve up from C. But, this can vary depending on the specific make variety and buttons

 

For Anglo.. Not sure how to answer.  GUESSING.. All on treble cleff

 

 

[JLAB9]

1 minute ago, seanc said:

Not 100% sure how to answer this...

 But, it is going depend a LOT on what concertina you are writing for.

 

For an English, you can pretty much use a violin as the template. 

 

For a duet, you're generally going to run left hand bass cleff, right hand treble cleff.  But it is going to be helpful to know the range, generally you bottom out on the bass at C. and treble on an ocatve up from C. But, this can vary depending on the specific make variety and buttons

 

For Anglo.. Not sure how to answer.  GUESSING.. All on treble cleff

I'll probably want to base it off the Anglo, as from my research it appears to be the favourite type for highly technical players (but of course correct me if I'm in error. It seems people on here don't often play the Anglo). 

 

Regarding number of buttons, I'll try to write with a range in mind for a Concertina with an average number of buttons, leaning towards those with more buttons as that provides me with more freedom as a composer. 

In general, are we talking just a single staff in treble clef?

 

With the Duet, what is often played in the left hand for bass clef? Are the notes pitched lower and in the bass clef, or is that just an LH RH notation style?
Do people tend to play more intricate melodies with the right and simpler bass button combinations in the left (ala Accordion, if you're familiar), or do melodies tend to spread across both hands?

 

Many thanks for your help. 

[Steve Schulteis]

Bisonoric would mean Anglo, which is what I play. At least for single note melody, regular staff notation is just fine. Single staff, treble clef is going to be preferred.

 

If you want the concertina playing multiple notes at once, practice will vary more. A lot of people just think in terms of chords, and won't go much beyond a basic lead sheet. If the notes are close together (e.g. thirds to fifths) and only a couple at a time, you might still get away with standard notation. Otherwise, you'll probably be looking at some kind of tablature. I'd wager Gary Coover's tab is the most widely used.

 

 

The range of available notes isn't fully continuous, so check a layout chart for that. Also make sure that all notes being played simultaneously are available in the same bellows direction. Here are links to the most common layouts:

• https://anglopiano.com/?cg-wheatstone-30
• https://anglopiano.com/?cg-jeffries-30

 

[seanc]

really not sure by what you mean by "highly technical" WRT anglo. 

 

If you are looking for that (for lack of a better description) Anglo Idiom, and the Irish trad types of cliche licks.  then write for that. I will not profess to be a knowledgable source there. But, most of the anglo staff notation I have seen is treble cleff only. But, sometimes, they will do a bass and treble depending on how much low left hand chords/ double stops there are),

 

Or, as or more often than not, some sort of tab. (like a guitar, there is a LOT of range cross over from row to row and side to side, much like a guitar has with strings).

 

 

As for Duet. You can pretty much treat it as a piano. 

 ** I will say from my experience, taking a piano score and having to flip certain out of range notes or passages can be tiresome. leading to bassess encoraching into the melody lines. 

 

You might go down the rabbit hole and just you tube the different systems to get a better feel for their capabilities. 

[JLAB9]

8 minutes ago, Steve Schulteis said:

Bisonoric would mean Anglo, which is what I play. At least for single note melody, regular staff notation is just fine. Single staff, treble clef is going to be preferred.

 

If you want the concertina playing multiple notes at once, practice will vary more. A lot of people just think in terms of chords, and won't go much beyond a basic lead sheet. If the notes are close together (e.g. thirds to fifths) and only a couple at a time, you might still get away with standard notation. Otherwise, you'll probably be looking at some kind of tablature. I'd wager Gary Coover's tab is the most widely used.

 

 

The range of available notes isn't fully continuous, so check a layout chart for that. Also make sure that all notes being played simultaneously are available in the same bellows direction. Here are links to the most common layouts:

• https://anglopiano.com/?cg-wheatstone-30
• https://anglopiano.com/?cg-jeffries-30

Thanks for the help!

I think I'll go for using the Wheatstone 30 layout, as I've seen that one quite a lot more in my research (and it gives me a continuous range, A3-G6). 

However, I am slightly concerned regarding the statement "Single Staff, Treble Clef". If I am using most if not all of that nearly three octave range, would it be advisable to make heavy use of 8va when writing high up in the range, or do Concertina players get good at recognising notes that have lots of ledger lines?

 

If I am using 8va, this will then apply to all notes, not only the high ones. To work around the problem which is likely to arise here, is there any generally accepted stave text to say which notes the 8va is affecting and which ones are independent of it?

 

Finally, on your note regarding tablature, is this something that Concertina players use to make reading music easier and not require memorising all buttons? I ask this not to be demeaning at all, rather because I do have a strong passion for standard sheet music and mastery of one's instrument in spite of its shortcomings in some cases. This is partly as it allows musicians not well versed in an instrument to easily adapt notation designed for it onto their own, which tablature can impede and sometimes make nearly impossible. This last point is of particular import to my use case. 

Is it reasonable to expect a professional Concertina player to be able to play from sheet alone, without the aid of tabs?

 

Thanks again. 

[JLAB9]

7 minutes ago, seanc said:

really not sure by what you mean by "highly technical" WRT anglo. 

 

If you are looking for that (for lack of a better description) Anglo Idiom, and the Irish trad types of cliche licks.  then write for that. I will not profess to be a knowledgable source there. But, most of the anglo staff notation I have seen is treble cleff only. But, sometimes, they will do a bass and treble depending on how much low left hand chords/ double stops there are),

 

Or, as or more often than not, some sort of tab. (like a guitar, there is a LOT of range cross over from row to row and side to side, much like a guitar has with strings).

 

 

As for Duet. You can pretty much treat it as a piano. 

 ** I will say from my experience, taking a piano score and having to flip certain out of range notes or passages can be tiresome. leading to bassess encoraching into the melody lines. 

 

You might go down the rabbit hole and just you tube the different systems to get a better feel for their capabilities. 

My statement "Highly Technical" was intended to refer to players who are at the top of the game, so to speak, and those who play for a living. In my research I found that these individuals tended to prefer the Anglo, though the Duet was a close second (I must say I am not super familiar with the English, as did not see much evidence of it being as capable of an instrument as the others, purely from the opinions of players). 

 

Do correct me if my information is wrong, however. I'm always willing to learn directly from musicians who are well versed with their particular instrument, however I tend to research thoroughly myself before reaching out to a community for advice, so I will not give up my researched conclusions without any evidence being provided for the contrary. Apologies if I come across as rude, it's just the way I like to work in this endeavour. 

[Steve Schulteis]

14 minutes ago, JLAB9 said:

However, I am slightly concerned regarding the statement "Single Staff, Treble Clef". If I am using most if not all of that nearly three octave range, would it be advisable to make heavy use of 8va when writing high up in the range, or do Concertina players get good at recognising notes that have lots of ledger lines?

 

I think most concertina players probably spend most of their time within a relatively narrow subset of the instrument's range. I've seen notation with a lot of ledger lines, and I've used 8va before myself. I don't think there's an agreed upon convention.

 

 

14 minutes ago, JLAB9 said:

Finally, on your note regarding tablature, is this something that Concertina players use to make reading music easier and not require memorising all buttons? I ask this not to be demeaning at all, rather because I do have a strong passion for standard sheet music and mastery of one's instrument in spite of its shortcomings in some cases. This is partly as it allows musicians not well versed in an instrument to easily adapt notation designed for it onto their own, which tablature can impede and sometimes make nearly impossible. This last point is of particular import to my use case. 

Is it reasonable to expect a professional Concertina player to be able to play from sheet alone, without the aid of tabs?

 

Tab is helpful because there are multiple ways to play the same note (or combination of notes), and which one is best will depend not only on what came before, but what's coming after. It includes bellows direction, which is important for phrasing. For simple melodies, it's normal to read from standard notation and develop a sort of intuition for this, figure it out yourself on any given tune, and scribble notes if needed (or probably more commonly, just memorize your choices). For playing harmonically, my experience thus far has been that learning from staff notation requires a lot of effort, because it leaves out a lot of important information. This is compounded by the fact that almost no music is written in this format specifically for concertina, so it usually requires adaptation to be playable at all.

 

This is all ignoring that a lot of players don't rely on any notation at all. Playing by ear isn't uncommon.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Steve Schulteis

[Steve Schulteis]

10 minutes ago, JLAB9 said:

My statement "Highly Technical" was intended to refer to players who are at the top of the game, so to speak, and those who play for a living. In my research I found that these individuals tended to prefer the Anglo, though the Duet was a close second (I must say I am not super familiar with the English, as did not see much evidence of it being as capable of an instrument as the others, purely from the opinions of players). 

 

It's probably worth mentioning that "Duet" isn't a single layout - there are multiple different duet systems. I'm also curious where you got the impression that duet is more common amongst pro players than English. I would have expected the opposite. I certainly don't think of duets as being a close second to the Anglo in terms of popularity, amongst pro players or anyone else.

[JLAB9]

1 minute ago, Steve Schulteis said:

 

I think most concertina players probably spend most of their time within a relatively narrow subset of the instrument's range. I've seen notation with a lot of ledger lines, and I've used 8va before myself. I don't think there's an agreed upon convention.

 

Tab is helpful because there are multiple ways to play the same note (or combination of notes), and which one is best will depend not only on what came before, but what's coming after. It includes bellows direction, which is important for phrasing. For simple melodies, it's normal to read from standard notation and develop a sort of intuition for this, figure it out yourself on any given tune, and scribble notes if needed (or probably more commonly, just memorize your choices). For playing harmonically, my experience thus far has been that learning from staff notation requires a lot of effort, because it leaves out a lot of important information. This is compounded by the fact that almost no music is written in this format specifically for concertina, so it usually requires adaptation to be playable at all.

 

This is all ignoring that a lot of players don't rely on any notation at all. Playing by ear isn't uncommon.

Thanks for all your help Steve. 

 

I want to try to make the most out of the instrument to really make it shine (I've heard some doubts from others as to whether bellows instruments can work in an Orchestra, and I'm determined to prove that they can). 

 

As for tab or sheet, since I have very little experience playing the Concertina, I think it would be unwise for me to dictate specific fingering to an actual Concertina player, as I will have no idea which of the buttons to use for a specific note (I don't know what movements are easy/difficult). 

I will of course notate bellows direction for phrasing purposes (I do this with Accordions also, despite them being unisonoric). 

 

May I also inquire as to the purpose of the dashed lines below the staff, and of what importance the chord names are to a Concertina player?

Thanks again. 

[JLAB9]

1 minute ago, Steve Schulteis said:

It's probably worth mentioning that "Duet" isn't a single layout - there are multiple different duet systems. I'm also curious where you got the impression that duet is more common amongst pro players than English. I would have expected the opposite. I certainly don't think of duets as being a close second to the Anglo in terms of popularity, amongst pro players or anyone else.

From what I had found during research, the Duet was preferred for those that played multiple instruments. I believe their reasoning for this preference tended to be its similarity to other instruments (not sure which instruments, or to which Duet Layout; I didn't look too far into it). 

[Steve Schulteis]

8 minutes ago, JLAB9 said:

As for tab or sheet, since I have very little experience playing the Concertina, I think it would be unwise for me to dictate specific fingering to an actual Concertina player, as I will have no idea which of the buttons to use for a specific note (I don't know what movements are easy/difficult). 

 

Yes, this is the sort of thing that does require a certain amount of experimentation.

 

8 minutes ago, JLAB9 said:

I will of course notate bellows direction for phrasing purposes (I do this with Accordions also, despite them being unisonoric). 

 

This is fine as a starting point, but I wouldn't be surprised if there need to be adjustments made by an experienced player. Awkward button jumps are sometimes worse for phrasing than bellows changes.

 

8 minutes ago, JLAB9 said:

May I also inquire as to the purpose of the dashed lines below the staff, and of what importance the chord names are to a Concertina player?

 

The dashed lines are to indicate buttons being held across multiple melody notes. I've seen other methods of showing rhythm in the harmony part. One that I particularly liked was using ties in the staff notation.

 

The chord names are redundant. They're nice if a guitarist wants to back you up. They're nice if you want to use them as a starting point for developing a different harmony yourself. Totally optional.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Steve Schulteis

[seanc]

I think Steve's allusion makes the most sense.

 

I would suggest doing a lead sheet/ fake book type format. Give them the melody line and then chords above. And then let that player "interpret" it based on their ability. And then also don't get too butthurt when it is not exactly as you expect it..

 

 Not piss off a lot of the anglo players out there. A LOT of REALLY amazing anglo players don't even read music. And (esp Irish trad) go in for the AABA type format to learn. And also to confuse it even more , by its nature, ITM has a lot of "ornaments" these tend to not be something that is written out at all. 

 

[Steve Schulteis]

Having the concertina play mostly single notes at a time will avoid a lot of potential problems. It's a valid and common style on the instrument. And then look at bellows notation as a suggestion that the player might deviate from as part of their performance.

[JLAB9]

1 minute ago, seanc said:

I think Steve's allusion makes the most sense.

 

I would suggest doing a lead sheet/ fake book type format. Give them the melody line and then chords above. And then let that player "interpret" it based on their ability. And then also don't get too butthurt when it is not exactly as you expect it..

 

 Not piss off a lot of the anglo players out there. A LOT of REALLY amazing anglo players don't even read music. And (esp Irish trad) go in for the AABA type format to learn. And also to confuse it even more , by its nature, ITM has a lot of "ornaments" these tend to not be something that is written out at all. 

 

Well for my purposes (Orchestral) it really is quite important that things are played exactly as written. Notes can sometimes be missed, but it's risky for someone to add extras on the fly without consulting other sections. When you have whole Woodwind Sections, Brass Sections, Strings Sections, and more (often synthesisers too these days, not to mention Pitched Percussion, Keyboard Instruments, and Vocals), any note added could create a lot of dissonance and a horrible tone. Personally, most of my time spent composing is simply trying to find the sources of dissonance and either mold them into a nice harmony, or remove them. It takes A LOT of work, and someone improvising in new notes (unless in a solo) is generally not a good idea when you have 30+ musicians playing at once. 

[Steve Schulteis]

1 hour ago, seanc said:

For an English, you can pretty much use a violin as the template. 

 

I think this is a good advice for any concertina system, with the caveat that Anglo will have some bellows phrasing limitations that are not present on the others.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Steve Schulteis

[JLAB9]

6 minutes ago, Steve Schulteis said:

 

The dashed lines are to indicate buttons being held across multiple melody notes. I've seen other methods of showing rhythm in the harmony part. One that I particularly liked was using ties in the staff notation.

 

The chord names are redundant. They're nice if a guitarist want's to back you up. They're nice if you want to use them as a starting point for developing a different harmony yourself. Totally optional.

I think I'll stick to ties. They make sense to me as they are used for practically every instrument, and further ease the job of switching the instruments around. 

 

Chord names will probably not be included. Guitarists are rarely included in my compositions (something I want to work on in 2024), and when they are their parts are notated too (and refer to my response to seanc on why adding your own harmonies on the fly is rarely a good idea). 

[Steve Schulteis]

The notation shared here has the ties+tab thing I was talking about: