Materials Traditional Or Modern?

[Richard Morse]

(or to be more accurate - we get a lot more BA's in for repair with this sticky-plastic-valve problem than PA's).

Perhaps this indicates that Button box players tend to hang around seedy smokey bars whereas piano box players are more of the "joys of spring" open air type?

More likely that our shop deals primarily with the traditional dance music crowd where BA's are much more prevalent than PA's.

[JimLucas]

(or to be more accurate - we get a lot more BA's in for repair with this sticky-plastic-valve problem than PA's).

Perhaps this indicates that Button box players tend to hang around seedy smokey bars whereas piano box players are more of the "joys of spring" open air type?

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More likely it's the soap bubbles that keep the PA's clean.

[Stephen Chambers]

I don't know about the science of it, but I would only ever have leather valves in my own instruments, simply because they make them sound better.

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Interesting you should say that Stephen. I have heard many people say that, but I wonder how you have arrived at that point of view? Its not often one gets to try the same box with different valves in order to make a fair comparison.

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I formed that opinion after having had otherwise identical Hohner button accordions tuned by Nils Nielsen, who has sometimes been known to swear by leather valves, and other times plastic ...

 

I got started on this train of thought when I changed a diatonic box I play from leather to plastic. To my ear the sound was (very slightly) improved with the plastic valves.  A bit more volume, and more "character".  Very hard I know to find words to convey the nuances, but I would guess that the higher harmonics were enhanced.

I found there seemed more "body" and sweetness in the sound with leather valves, and that the plastic valves produced a sound that was harder and thinner. I too came to the conclusion that the higher harmonics were enhanced, but didn't like it.

[JimLucas]

I got started on this train of thought when I changed a diatonic box I play from leather to plastic. To my ear the sound was (very slightly) improved with the plastic valves.  A bit more volume, and more "character".  Very hard I know to find words to convey the nuances, but I would guess that the higher harmonics were enhanced.

I found there seemed more "body" and sweetness in the sound with leather valves, and that the plastic valves produced a sound that was harder and thinner. I too came to the conclusion that the higher harmonics were enhanced, but didn't like it.

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Is it possible that the plastic valves, which are of a stiffer but thinner material (at least the few I've seen, which weren't necessarily of high quality), may be caught up in the high-frequency harmonic vibrations, or that the leather valves slightly absord them?

 

It does sound like the two of you are describing the same effect, but have divergent tastes.

[Stephen Chambers]

It does sound like the two of you are describing the same effect, but have divergent tastes.

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Or very different accordions ?

 

I would say that if an instrument had a dullish sound, it might be a way of brightening it up, but the 1930ish Hohners that I prefer are pretty bright-sounding anyway.

Edited March 7, 2005 by Stephen Chambers

[Theo]

Stephen said;

 

Or very different accordions ?

 

I would say that if an instrument had a dullish sound, it might be a way of brightening it up, but the 1930ish Hohners that I prefer are pretty bright-sounding anyway.

 

My experience was with a 1930s hohner fitted with modern Italian reeds - Cagnoni Tipo a Mano, which don't have the brightness of some of the older Hohner reeds, but do have a bigger rounder sound.

 

Jim said:

 

Is it possible that the plastic valves, which are of a stiffer but thinner material (at least the few I've seen, which weren't necessarily of high quality), may be caught up in the high-frequency harmonic vibrations, or that the leather valves slightly absord them?

 

My instinct, and a little acoustic theory gleaned from a son doing post-grad study in the subject, would be that it is to do with differential absorption and dispersion of sound by the two materials. Textured surfaces generally reflect less sound energy than smooth, and high frequencies are absorbed more readily than low frequencies. Its just an educated guess though. Perhaps I should send some valve materials down to Andy in Salford and get him to do some measurements of the acoustic properties.

 

Which brings me back to concertinas and the idea behind the original post. Could a different valve material (plastic or maybe something not yet thought of) bu used to improve the sound volume from typical brass-reeded basic concertinas. Test so far are inconclusive!

 

Theo

Edited March 8, 2005 by Theo

[Stephen Chambers]

Stephen said;

 

Or very different accordions ?

 

I would say that if an instrument had a dullish sound, it might be a way of brightening it up, but the 1930ish Hohners that I prefer are pretty bright-sounding anyway.

 

My experience was with a 1930s hohner fitted with modern Italian reeds - Cagnoni Tipo a Mano, which don't have the brightness of some of the older Hohner reeds, but do have a bigger rounder sound.

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The Hohner model that I really like was only made up until 1933/4. They have the advantage of the (then) new metal action, that is still used today, but the reeds are still mounted on old-style zinc plates, which really give a "zing" to the sound.

[JimLucas]

Is it possible that the plastic valves, which are of a stiffer but thinner material (at least the few I've seen, which weren't necessarily of high quality), may be caught up in the high-frequency harmonic vibrations, or that the leather valves slightly absord them?

My instinct, and a little acoustic theory gleaned from a son doing post-grad study in the subject, would be that it is to do with differential absorption and dispersion of sound by the two materials.

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I think my idea was similar, but I also conjured up the very non-technical image of a thin plastic, free-floating kazoo membrane.

[Henrik Müller]

Is it possible that the plastic valves, which are of a stiffer but thinner material (at least the few I've seen, which weren't necessarily of high quality), may be caught up in the high-frequency harmonic vibrations, or that the leather valves slightly absord them?

My instinct, and a little acoustic theory gleaned from a son doing post-grad study in the subject, would be that it is to do with differential absorption and dispersion of sound by the two materials.

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I think my idea was similar, but I also conjured up the very non-technical image of a thin plastic, free-floating kazoo membrane.

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I have been thinking about this discussion, and I agree with you both. From 1986-90 I worked at a sound/audio development/research facility in Copenhagen where I picked up a certain amount of "common-sense acoustics" (hmm, good expression, I just made that up). And I always like to quote Jan, my boss at that time: "Acoustics? It’s fifty-fifty heavy science and black magic. It's the black magic part that is hard".

 

Henrik