Which Jckie?

[laticsrblu]

Hi

I'm a complete newbie to concertinas - though not to keyboard instruments.

 

I'm seriously just about to order a Jackie, want to see if I have any ounce of concertina talent b4 commitig mysely to a more expensive model.

 

But the question is which one.

 

Jackie 1st Edition:

30 keys, ranging from G below middle C to the second A above middle C.

The notes D#/Eb and G#/Ab are doubled

 

Jackie 2nd Edition:

30 keys, ranging from G below middle C to the second C above middle C.

The 2nd edition goes 3 notes (Bb, B, C) higher than the 1st edition, but misses the double notes.

 

Concertina connection say that the 1st Edition 1 is great for playing chords, not being a player I wouldn't know how hard chords are without the double keys.

 

Are these keys doubled up on 48 key concertinas?

 

I.m leaning towards 2nd Edition - the xtra keys seem v useful, but I'm open to advise.

 

 

Thanks in advance

Ian

[JimLucas]

I'm seriously just about to order a Jackie, ... But the question is which one.

Jackie 1st Edition: 

      30 keys, ranging from G below middle C to the second A above middle C.

      The notes D#/Eb and G#/Ab are doubled

Jackie 2nd Edition: 

      30 keys, ranging from G below middle C to the second C above middle C.

      The 2nd edition goes 3 notes (Bb, B, C) higher than the 1st edition, but misses the double notes. 

 

Concertina connection say that the 1st  Edition 1 is great for playing chords,...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would take a different perspective:

... If you're going to be playing a lot of tunes -- airs and dance music from Ireland, England, Scotland, America, Scandinavia, etc. -- you're going to want those extra notes on the top for at least some of the tunes. (There was a discussion a while ago about what to do when the tune has a note that your instrument doesn't have. That was before the 2nd Edition was released. Try "Jackie" in the Search facility here. You may find some other things of interest.)

... If you're going to be accompanying singing -- using chords or other harmonies -- you probably won't need those additional high notes, but you may find that the duplicated notes make it easier to play in certain keys which are comfortable for singing, but not commonly used for traditional dance tunes.

 

On a standard 48-button treble you'll find both the duplications and the higher notes (and an additional octave, besides). Having the duplicates could even make things easier for playing some tunes (e.g., those in the key of A), since there's an underlying pattern to the English-system keyboard that the duplicates extend to more keys. But being without them shouldn't cause any real problems, and when you progress to a more advanced instrument, you'll just find that they let you relax a little more.

[otsaku]

I'm a beginner too.

 

Jim advised me when the choice was between an anglo and an english and I was looking for an instrument under $200. The Jackie 1st edition is an impressive instrument, size weight and tone.

 

Yesterday it was an extremely daunting instrument and I was worried I'd bit of more than I could chew.

 

Today I started to see the system in the key layout and have learnt a single tune.

 

I can't see at the moment that I'll need the extra notes for any of the tunes I play on the whistle and mandolin.

 

The major problem I have is hiolding the jackie comfortabley and I think I'm going to need a physical lesson in that...

 

One beginner to another though without knowledge of any other concertinas I'd say go with the 1st edition - the thought of extra notes baffles me and from a starter point of view I think would be very confusing.

[Stephen Mills]

My advice is different. I have had the original Jackie for nearly a year now. It is a good instrument, but the lack of an upper B and C has been a major pebble in my shoe the whole time. These notes come into play in at least half of the tunes I play. The range of the tune is the major determining factor in whether I pick up my Anglo or the Jackie. Oh, I can make most tunes work without them, but I don’t like to have to.

 

I do play chords a lot, though mostly two note chords. My major style on the Jackie is to play the melody and try to add harmony or bass lines beneath it. If you examine the “new” Jackie, you find that if you restrict yourself to the natural triads, it will allow you to play the root triads for each scale note in the keys of Bb, F, C, G, and D without alteration from a full English. In A, the G# is missing only from the high end; most(?) people will play their accompaniment on the lower end. Similarly in E, unless you’re playing your triads at the high end, you’re still ok. The Ab in the IIm and IV triads in the key of Eb are the first real sign of trouble. (If you’re planning on playing a flat-5add13 substitute in the key of B, contact me and maybe I can take some lessons from you.)

 

Further, I eventually decided I don’t like the adjacent triads on the concertina, anyway. I’ve since seen sources who agree with me, arguing that the overtones on the concertina produce too much discord. I’d rather invert them, space them out, or drop a note.

 

I do play a lot of chromatic notes, reading jazz lead sheets or playing chromatic folk melodies or ones that use different scales from different cultures. Once in a while, I find myself, even on my Jackie, reaching for a note in a place that seems more natural, but having to train myself to go to the other side of the concertina. This may occur slightly more on the new Jackie, but for me, there is no comparison to the discomfort caused by the loss of the high notes. So, that’s my opinion. It’s not necessarily right, but it’s strongly held.

[JimLucas]

In A, the G# is missing only from the high end;...

Yeah, I sort of wonder why it's not consistent across the octaves.

 

Similarly in E, unless you’re playing your triads at the high end, you’re still ok.

Interesting you should say that, since the low D# is missing; instead it's an Eb on the other end of the instrument. That can seem awkward if you're playing melody or harmony lines in that octave, but it's an advantage if you're playing a standard B7 chord, since it let's you split the chord between the two hands. (On most 7th chords, that's not necessary, since the tonic and fifth are in the same row and can be pressed together by a single finger.)

 

Further, I eventually decided I don’t like the adjacent triads on the concertina, anyway.

My own opinion is... sometimes yes, and sometimes no. I try alternatives and pick what sounds best to me in the particular situation. It varies.

 

...even on my [1st Edition] Jackie, reaching for a note in a place that seems more natural, but having to train myself to go to the other side of the concertina.  This may occur slightly more on the new Jackie, but for me, there is no comparison to the discomfort caused by the loss of the high notes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm. What do you use those 2nd Edition high notes for in song accompaniment, that you suffer from not having them?

[Stephen Mills]

...even on my [1st Edition] Jackie, reaching for a note in a place that seems more natural, but having to train myself to go to the other side of the concertina.  This may occur slightly more on the new Jackie, but for me, there is no comparison to the discomfort caused by the loss of the high notes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm. What do you use those 2nd Edition high notes for in song accompaniment, that you suffer from not having them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was unclear here. I meant to contrast the relative discomfort of not having the range of melody notes I want when playing a tune vs. having to restructure chords when adding harmony.

 

edited to note the obvious. I need to look up the thread or help files on how to use quotes in the new system.

 

edited again to replace the quote mark I had accidentally deleted - see Jim's advice below.

Edited February 9, 2005 by Stephen Mills

[JimLucas]

edited to note the obvious. I need to look up the thread or help files on how to use quotes in the new system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1) Any method that worked before the upgrade should still work.

2) But it's very helpful to use Post Preview before using Add Post. You can see if anything went wrong (and check for typos), then correct your mistakes rather than showing them in public.

 

The important thing with quotes is that each quoted section must start with a quote tag ("quote" in square brackets, possibly but not necessarily with an "=" sign and added text) and must end with a cancel-quote tag ("/quote" in square brackets). I.e., the number of "quote" tags with a "/" has to equal the number without, and at no place within the text should there have been more with slashes than without.

 

Quotes can be nested. E.g.,

[quote=Joe]Joe said[/quote][quote=Bill]Bill said[/quote]

will look like this:

Joe said

Bill said

but

[quote=Bill][quote=Joe]Joe said[/quote]Bill said[/quote]

will look like this

Joe said

Bill said

[geoffwright]

The Jackie is not meant to have "all tunes played on it" and is only a "stepping stone" for people who are uncertain, to try concertina - if you are capable of picking up an instrument by ear quickly, you will soon run out of buttons and would be better with one with more buttons.

Within the above limitations, they are also fine for people who want a lightweight model.

At the price, the Jackie should be easy to sell on as and when.

Edited February 9, 2005 by geoffwright

[Stephen Mills]

The Jackie is not meant to have "all tunes played on it" and is only a "stepping stone" for people who are uncertain, to try concertina - if you are capable of picking up an instrument by ear quickly, you will soon run out of buttons and would be better with one with more buttons.

Within the above limitations, they are also fine for people who want a lightweight model.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Jackie is a very well made instrument. There is no concertina of comparable quality for the price. I always recommend it enthusiastically when these questions come up, and I salute the Wakkers for making a high quality, low cost English available.

 

That said, an instrument which will not play within the normal compass of even folk tunes has a bit of a design flaw. (A very quick survey of folk tunes suggested that 1/3 to 1/2 of the tunes contained a high B or C and were not transposable within the range by moving an octave lower.) I believe the Wakkers have recognized this and addressed it with their second edition. I again applaud them and recommend the second edition Jackie even more enthusiastically than the first. I think this one can be much more than a starter instrument for many people.

[laticsrblu]

Thank you very much to everyone who replied.

 

After taking all that has been said into consideration I have orderd a 2nd Edition

As it is my 1st concertina I will not be used to the double keys so I guess I won't miss them. Running out of notes would be far more inconvenient.

 

Now I'm waiting eagerly for the postman with a big box.

 

Mind you I haven't had an email comfirmation of my order from Concertina connection yet

[Paul Read]

I see CC has one on ebay if you're in a hurry. $260 buy-it-now price

Edited February 9, 2005 by Paul Read

[Aquarussell]

I have a Jackie, and I am very happy with it. But the action of the new model is better, and the range longer, and if I were buying one now I would want one of those.

 

And the exchange policy of the Concertina Connection makes it so much more attractive, you can trade up later as your skill and finances allow.

 

I have posted before, and I post again, that their customer service is very, very good.

 

Russell Hedges

"Aquarussell"