Modes And Keys

[Don Taylor]

In case you missed it, here is an interesting example:

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7837&p=177667

[Jack Campin]

Most of that works, but the last one isn't really locrian. It just ends on an F#, which is common for tunes whose tonal centre is D or B. I'd say it was a mixture of B phrygian and D mixolydian, with a lot of F# chords inserted where D major ones would have been more appropriate.

 

And surely if it was meant to be locrian the F# chords should have been F# diminished? F# major is out of mode.

 

Not really a failure, though. "Locrian" mode doesn't actually exist. You can't fault somebody for failure in trying the impossible.

[Roger Hare]

> Can I get a bit of feedback on my pages? I'm thinking of extending them in several different directions and

> I'd like to prioritize. Which of these matters most?

 

As you know I've already sent a couple of comments via PMs, but, I'm very happy to say in public that these

pages are amazing - I'm starting to study them seriously. Keep it coming please...

 

I have appended some items from your list which seem to me to be important. Please remember that I am still

for all practical purposes a musical illiterate, so these choices may seem odd to real musicians! It's perhaps

worth mentioning that it's these pages of yours which have determined me to learn more about music theory!

 

General comment: The pages are specifically oriented towards Scottish music. The audience here is (I presume)

free-reed oriented. Is there any clash of objectives/goals here?

 

> 1. tidying up the introductory stuff to make it more beginner-friendly (I find this difficult or I'd already have done it)

 

Yes please.

 

> 2. adding more descriptions and examples of modes from Eastern Europe, India and the Middle East (not too hard)

 

Yes please. Some 'clarification' also? For example, I'm looking at the Hijaz scale. The ABC script is in DMix, the printed

score it produces is in G. The ABC script for the song Moj Dilbere is in DPhr, the printed score is in Bb, yet to my ear,

the notes sound to be from the same pitch set (I think I got all that right!). I only really looked at this one yesterday so I

haven't had time to study it fully, and I may have goofed here, but I'm a little confused.

 

I have to stop there as I'm about to run out of time on this bloody library computer, but this is great stuff! More please...

 

Later:

 

> Yes please. Some 'clarification' also? For example, I'm looking at the Hijaz scale. The ABC script is in DMix, the printed

> score it produces is in G. The ABC script for the song Moj Dilbere is in DPhr, the printed score is in Bb, yet to my ear,

> the notes sound to be from the same pitch set (I think I got all that right!). I only really looked at this one yesterday so I

> haven't had time to study it fully, and I may have goofed here, but I'm a little confused.

 

In fact, I now think I got it wrong!!! The pitch sets are different - I think. I have transposed and can play the scale on my Bb/F

instrument, and I now want to use that transposed scale as a basis for picking out the song Moj Dilbere so that I can (try to)

play it on that Bb/F instrument - I don't have a C/G or G/D instrument with accidentals to hand to try it the other way round..

 

Still confused, but pluggin' on...

 

Roger

Edited May 24, 2016 by lachenal74693

[Jack Campin]

With key signatures including both flats and sharps, you usually have to fight your software to get them represented right. ABC does sort of allow mixed signatures, but not all implementations get it right (Sibelius is even worse). So you have to pick a key signature that has either sharps or flats and notate the other ones as if they were accidentals (they aren't really). I generally look at the tune and pick the option that involves the least accidental signs; for hijaz on D, usually that means a two-flat signature with the F's sharpened by accidentals wherever they occur.

[David Barnert]

David

 

I would be grateful for your advice on harmonizing dorian, mixolydian and natural minor tunes, particularly on chord progressions that work in these modes.

 

Thx. Don.

 

Hi, Don.

 

I do this kind of without thinking about it, so I don't have a really good answer.

 

In a mode that doesn't have a raised 7th as a leading tone, the 5 chord becomes less satisfying as a dominant chord, unless you're bold enough to use a chord with the raised 7th even if the tune has a lowered 7th. What I often do in the aeolian mode is use 6 - 7 - 1 as the final cadence (for instance, in A minor, F - G - Am). I guess I tend to spend a lot of time playing major chords behind tunes in minor keys, 3 and 7 instead of 1 and 5, for instance, if the melody is hanging around the 3 and 2 notes. 6 as a substitute for 1 if the melody has a 1 note but you want to keep the harmony driving forward. Often what chooses the chord for me is playing a bass note a 10th (that is, an octave and a 3rd) below what's in the melody.

 

The only other thing I can think of to answer your question is that in the dorian mode a 4 major chord (with the raised 6th degree as the major 3rd of the chord) can be very effective if used sparingly, for example, a D major chord in A dorian.

 

I use many of these tricks in my playing of "Cuckoo's Nest."

 

I play it in A minor (dorian). Note the D major chord in the 2nd measure, and the "6 - 7 - 1" idea I mentioned above, even though the tune, being dorian, has F#s and the 6 chord I'm playing is built on F natural. In the 1st half of the B section I go a little overboard using linked 4 - 5 - 1 cadences one after another, with each 1 acting as the 4 of the next. That sequence ends with an E7 chord, with its G#, against a melody that has only G naturals.

 

CDG (451 in G)
  GAD(451 in D)
    DEAmin(451 in Amin)

Here's abc for what I play:

X:1
T:Cukoo's Nest
M:C
K:Ador
P:A
AB|:"Am"cdcB"F"A2g2|"C"e2dc"D"d2d2|"F"cBA2"G"G2AB|1"Am"c2d2A3B:|2"Am"c2d2"G"A4||
P:B
|:"F"a2a2a2ba|"C"g2e2"D"e3f|"G"g2g2"A7"g2ag|"D"f2d2"E7"d3B|
"Am"cdcB"F"A2g2|"C"e2dc"D"d2d2|"F"cBA2"G"G2AB|"Am"c2d2A4:|

[Don Taylor]

David,

 

Thank you so much, this has been very helpful and provided lots of food for thought and experimentation.

 

I have another modal question forming in my mind, but I think that you have already answered it. I will state it anyway as Jack might have something to say about it:

 

How do you treat hexatonic tunes with a missing 7th note?

 

For instance, on Jack Campin's tutorial pages on modes he gives the ABC for "Tramps and Hawkers" as an example of a hexatonic tune. Is this tune, and many other Scottish tunes, Ionian or Mixolydian? And what key signature should it have?

 

The answers, I think, seems to be "both and either" as the information behind the questions is ambiguous.

 

Of more significance, perhaps, is how to treat the chords and what to do about chords that do include the seventh?

 

Here is a link to Jack's page:

 

http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes/Modes-hexa.abc

 

and here is the ABC:

 

X:0

T:Tramps and Hawkers

M:3/4

L:1/4

Q:3/4=80

K:C

% major/mixolydian hexatonic

C |E2 E|D2 C|D2 E|C2 A,|G,2 A,|C2 D|C3- |C2

E |G2 G|E F G|A2 A|G2 E |C2 D |E D C|A,3-|A,2

E |G2 G|E F G|A2 A|G2 E |C2 D |E D C|A,3-|A,2

C/D/|E2 E|D2 C|D2 E|C2 A,|G,2 A,|C2 D|C3- |C2|]

[David Barnert]

David,

 

Thank you so much, this has been very helpful and provided lots of food for thought and experimentation.

 

I have another modal question forming in my mind, but I think that you have already answered it. I will state it anyway as Jack might have something to say about it:

 

How do you treat hexatonic tunes with a missing 7th note?

 

For instance, on Jack Campin's tutorial pages on modes he gives the ABC for "Tramps and Hawkers" as an example of a hexatonic tune. Is this tune, and many other Scottish tunes, Ionian or Mixolydian? And what key signature should it have?

 

The answers, I think, seems to be "both and either" as the information behind the questions is ambiguous.

 

Of more significance, perhaps, is how to treat the chords and what to do about chords that do include the seventh?

 

You're welcome.

 

I don't know what to call it (or even if there is a standard answer). So I'll say it doesn't matter what you call it. As to how to play it, most people would include notes in the harmony that don't appear in the tune (think of the all-but-essential F chord in the 2nd measure of "Star of the County Down" when played in A minor).

 

My favorite example of a tune with this kind of ambiguity is "Shady Grove." I first learned it in A minor, and since it had neither F nor F#, it didn't occur to me to wonder whether it was aeolian or dorian.

X:1
T:Shady Grove
M:C|
L:1/4
K:Ador
"Am"AAA2|"G"BG"Am"A2|AAcd|e4|
"C"gge2|"G"dBG2|"Am"Ac"G"BG|"Am"A4|]

Then I heard Pete Sutherland play it on the banjo in G major.

X:2
T:Shady Grove
M:C|
L:1/4
K:G
"D7"AAA2|"G"BAG2|"G"GGBd|"C"e4|
"C"gge2|"G"dBG2|"G"GGBG|"D7"A4|]

I thought, "Wow, that's a whole different tune!" But then I realized it's practically the same notes with different chords.