38 C/g Jeffries Layout Question

[Jay-Jay]

I have a quick question.

 

At the moment I have a 30 button crabb C/G.

 

I was looking at 38 button concertinas with a Jeffries layout.

 

At the moment the G/A on the left side feels perfectly placed for my fingers, will a 38 button Jeffries layout displace the G/A or will it stay in the same place with the extra button placed in front of the G/A.

 

I hope my question makes sense

 

 

[Bruce McCaskey]

I have to start off making it clear that I don't own a 38-button Jeffries. That said, I have spent a few moments on a borrowed one some years back and I currently have a 38-button Carroll.

 

As to the left side G/A, on a 30-button, there are two buttons on the left side that offer those tones. The one at the top of the middle "C" row with G on the push and A on the pull, and one on the outer (sometimes called accidental) row, one down from the top, that offers those pitches in the reverse direction from the C row button. I assume you are asking about the one at the top of the C row, but regardless, I've never seen either of those relocated on a 38-button instrument.

 

You might refer to the appropriate chart on this informative website. The maker lists a G/C Jeffries 38-button layout, but it is a C/G layout. I think he was just confused as to naming conventions.

 

http://www.korbo.com/piedcrow/diagramindex.htm

[Dana Johnson]

The 38's I've played added buttons on the index finger side, but didn't displace the row. It was still confusing at first just because of thinking I was on the wrong button. Took very little time to get over. Brains are quite clever about these things.

Dana

[Jay-Jay]

The 38's I've played added buttons on the index finger side, but didn't displace the row. It was still confusing at first just because of thinking I was on the wrong button. Took very little time to get over. Brains are quite clever about these things.

Dana

 

So if I take the left side, the additional button is say on the middle row is it in front of the G/A? leaving it in the same place on the concertina on my 30 button Crabb? I would get used to it but it's be even easier if the extra button was in meaning I could simply ignore those buttons, keep the same hand/fingering position that I'm used to on my 30 button

[Bruce McCaskey]

I'm having a bit of trouble interpreting your positional reference of "in front of" as I think of the extra button version adding a button above the G/A in a physical sense. Regardless, the extra button models add buttons in various locations but don't change the 30-button core button/reed locations. If you play just the 30-button core section of a 38-button, everything will be in the same relative location as on a standard 30-button instrument.

 

The part that throws some folks at first is that the presence of the extra buttons confuses them in locating the 30-button core section. If you don't look at the buttons and just locate your fingers by sound (left ring finger on middle row C, right index on middle row C, all your familiar buttons will be just where you expect them to be for the Jeffries system. You could indeed ignore the extra buttons.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Bruce McCaskey

[Jay-Jay]

I'm having a bit of trouble interpreting your positional reference of "in front of" as I think of the extra button version adding a button above the G/A in a physical sense. Regardless, the extra button models add buttons in various locations but don't change the 30-button core button/reed locations. If you play just the 30-button core section of a 38-button, everything will be in the same relative location as on a standard 30-button instrument.

 

The part that throws some folks at first is that the presence of the extra buttons confuses them in locating the 30-button core section. If you don't look at the buttons and just locate your fingers by sound (left ring finger on middle row C, right index on middle row C, all your familiar buttons will be just where you expect them to be for the Jeffries system. You could indeed ignore the extra buttons.

 

Ahhhh this gives me the answer I've wanted, the core 38 button concertina doesn't change the core 30 buttons, oh gosh you explained it far better than I could have I'm happy now, the extras buttons don't bother me as long as they didn't interfere with the core 30 buttons that I'm used to, that I don't have to adjust my hands/fingering to play the core 30 buttons that I'm so used to, so I can just ignore the extra buttons

[adrian brown]

Ahhhh this gives me the answer I've wanted, the core 38 button concertina doesn't change the core 30 buttons, oh gosh you explained it far better than I could have I'm happy now, the extras buttons don't bother me as long as they didn't interfere with the core 30 buttons that I'm used to, that I don't have to adjust my hands/fingering to play the core 30 buttons that I'm so used to, so I can just ignore the extra buttons

 

Why bother to change to a 38 then Jay-Jay, if you intend to ignore the extra possibilities a 38 opens up?

I would just like to point out the considerable advantage a 38 keyboard gives you, namely that the middle two octaves of the instrument become chromatic in both bellows directions. This means that you can play either:

in/out/in,

out/in/out,

only out (until the bellows are at full stretch!),

only in (until the bellows are completely compressed...),

a combination of these to simplify your fingering patterns

and last, but by no means least, to play far more complicated harmonic combinations than are possible on the 30 layout.

Musically, it gives the anglo a whole new dimension and will allow you to explore repertoire from Guillaume de Machaut to The Beatles - yes, I'd definitely recommend the change…

 

Adrian

[Jay-Jay]

 

Ahhhh this gives me the answer I've wanted, the core 38 button concertina doesn't change the core 30 buttons, oh gosh you explained it far better than I could have I'm happy now, the extras buttons don't bother me as long as they didn't interfere with the core 30 buttons that I'm used to, that I don't have to adjust my hands/fingering to play the core 30 buttons that I'm so used to, so I can just ignore the extra buttons

 

Why bother to change to a 38 then Jay-Jay, if you intend to ignore the extra possibilities a 38 opens up?

I would just like to point out the considerable advantage a 38 keyboard gives you, namely that the middle two octaves of the instrument become chromatic in both bellows directions. This means that you can play either:

in/out/in,

out/in/out,

only out (until the bellows are at full stretch!),

only in (until the bellows are completely compressed...),

a combination of these to simplify your fingering patterns

and last, but by no means least, to play far more complicated harmonic combinations than are possible on the 30 layout.

Musically, it gives the anglo a whole new dimension and will allow you to explore repertoire from Guillaume de Machaut to The Beatles - yes, I'd definitely recommend the change…

 

Adrian

 

 

Because if an instrument I really really like the looks of that happens to come up for sale, I'd love the opportunity to jump at it, I'm only at the beginning of my journey to playing the concertina and I wanted to be sure that first priority is that the layout is something I am comfortable with. It does excite me that the new possibilities of what a 38 button instrument can do and especially as you've mentioned the directions notes can be played in would be great for me as I still run into air difficulties.

[CrP]

May I offer a comment on relative button spacing (between rows) and distance-between-buttons (side-to-side)? These 2 factors affect the feel of an instrument beneather the fingers and there is no single industry standard that all the concertina manufacturers adhered to over the 150-odd years that folks ahve been mass-producing said instruments. As I occasionally play a Lachenal, a 44-key Jeffries, and a couple of Jones instruments, i find that several factors affect the speed with which I can play any given instrument and the accuracy [meaning how reliably finger X presses the intended button solidly and cleanly enough to control the resultant musical note]. Not least of these is the amount of practise time I have put into playing on 1 instrument and the proportion of that pracvtice time that is recent.

 

Perhaps this discussion ought to continue in the "ergonomics" section instead of or as well as here.

 

Other important factors to consider: The surface area of the buttons, i.e., button diameter;

height of button above the wood or metal surface and definitely -- most definitely -- the distance from handrest to the rows, along with the optimum hand and wrist angles that best suit the player+instrument combination. Seems to me as soon as one encounters any significant discrepancies in any or several of these factors between 2 or more instruments, one's muscle patterns will have to change to adapt to those slight (or major) differences.

 

Comments?

[Bruce McCaskey]

If I interpret your intent correctly CrP, I think you are suggesting that one should consider the adjustment and perhaps inconvenience involved when one considers switching to another concertina. I agree that there will likely be an adjustment needed. I'll relate my own experience and thoughts on the matter.

 

I currently have three concertinas by three different makers and two different tunings between them. One is in standard Wheatstone layout, one in modified Wheatstone layout and the third in what I would call a modified Jeffries layout (with 38-buttons). One has what I would characterize as pin buttons (County Clare type) and the other two have larger plastic buttons with slightly different shapes. There's even a slight difference in spacing between some of the buttons and between the wooden hand bars and the buttons.

 

Each instrument has its own nuance of playing mechanics (button and bellows pressures required) and reed response. I can play any of them, but my approach to each needs to be tailored to get the best result. Nothing big, but slight differences in finger positioning, finger pressure and how the bellows action is timed with the button pressure and duration. The only exception I've noted to this is when I've had two relatively new instruments of the same model by the same maker.

 

Of the ones I have now, I find that whichever one I've played most recently is the one I play best. If I switch off to another, I'll do a passable job of playing it from the start, but it takes me one or two playing sessions to achieve my absolute best command of the instrument; to get the cleanest cuts, the crispest triplets, to get just the sound I want from the reeds and to feel I'm playing my best. For that reason if I'm planning on playing for others in a paid setting, I make a point of sticking with the same instrument the last few days before the performance.

 

I think there would be some adjustment for anyone switching from one concertina to another, whether between 30-button instruments or 30 to 38-button instruments, but they will adapt quickly. It may take a few days or a few weeks, but it will happen. While it's appropriate to recognize such a change may have a short term impact on one's playing, if the instrument you are considering switching to is in good condition and what you would like to have, it'll be worth the minor inconvenience to adjust.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Bruce McCaskey

[adrian brown]

I think there would be some adjustment for anyone switching from one concertina to another, whether between 30-button instruments or 30 to 38-button instruments, but they will adapt quickly. It may take a few days or a few weeks, but it will happen. While it's appropriate to recognize such a change may have a short term impact on one's playing, if the instrument you are considering switching to is in good condition and what you would like to have, it'll be worth the minor inconvenience to adjust.

I'd agree with you Bruce, I'd have a lot more problems switching between different anglo note layouts (Jeffries vs Wheatstone, 30 vs 38 button) than small differences in button spacing, rest position or button size/shape. In my experience, the former takes months, or longer to get used to, whereas the latter can take between a couple of hours and a couple of weeks to adapt to.

 

Adrian