Type of concertina to purchase?

[MatthewVanitas]

Not to muddy the waters too much, but speaking as one with a bit of experience training non-musicians on Appalachian dulcimer, and also singing while playing one-row melodeon, I wonder if a 20-button (2-row) might not be an easier way to meet Barry's skill level and budget?

 

A total music novice might find it easier to play "harmonica style" (as another concertina novice posted about this week), playing largely on one row with dips to the other for alternate directions or a rare F/F# change. One can still play basic chord progressions for accompanying voice, a lot of basic folk melodies, hymns, etc. Further there's a decent amount of raw-beginner instructional material out there for 20-button, so a novice is unlikely to really miss the chromatics/alternates for a lot of the purposes Barry describes.

 

As Mike suggested, Button Box does rentals (though not sure if they do 20s or just 30s), but also if price is a factor maybe getting a playable used 20-button Italian from a reputable seller/musician might work? I feel a bit bad that I don't have any running right now (until I re-sleeve and check the three sitting on my bookshelf awaiting tweaking), but I've sold several 20-button C/G Bastaris and similar to novices for $100 or less, after having checked out the sleeves, pads, and played the reeds against an electronic tuner. If someone on these boards has a "beater" Anglo they're not using much, such a box might give Barry a really inexpensive way to learn the basics of Anglo at minimal expense, and then decide what his next step should be.

 

So far as key, I'll side with Anglo-Irishman and submit that for a lot of folk music it's not a tremendous issue. Between a 20b C/G and G/D, doesn't that give one almost the same keys to sing in? You can play in G (and its relatives), and then either C or D depending on box. So in either case you have basically the same span, albeit different octaves (which doesn't really effect the singer).

 

 

Maybe it's the melodeon/dulcimer playing minimalist in me, but it really seems that a 20-button might suit Barry fine for his purposes and starting out. And a new 20b from Button Box is far less expensive than a 30b, or a used 20b that's been properly verified as a decent player by a fellow musician is cheaper still. Presumably a lot of working-class musicians a century ago played 20s, so for Barry's straightforward and folkish uses it seems a good fit.

Edited January 9, 2013 by MatthewVanitas

[Mikefule]

As a singer, you can improve your range with some simple techniques/understanding, and plenty of practice. I am only a run of the mill pub singer (Morris sessions and occasional visits to a folk club) but I went to one workshop for an afternoon, and felt that I had extended my singing ability and confidence a long way.

 

There will always be some keys that you are more confortable with, and there will always be some songs that go too high or too low for you to sing as well as you would like.

 

Generally, people who sing and accompany themselves on an instrument make compromises with both their singing and their playing because there is so much going on. To accompany yourself well will take lots of practice, but the result will be rewarding. If you're learning the instrument as you go then it may be sensible to get a couple of dozen dance tunes under your belt before trying to play and sing at the same time.

[Anglo-Irishman]

 

Generally, people who sing and accompany themselves on an instrument make compromises with both their singing and their playing because there is so much going on.

I'd modify that slightly: you'll have to make compromises in your playing, but don't make compromises in your singing! The accompaniment is only there to support the singing, so factor out anything on the instrumental side that could interfere with your expressive, clear delivery of the tune and words.

 

That means that your accompaniment must not take all your skill and concentration. Arrange accompaniments more simply than you would arrange an instrumental version of the same tune. You're ready to perform a self-accompanied song when the accompaniment comes automatically, without thinking about it. "Muscle memory" is the catchword. This doesn't mean that your accompanment will sound "mechanical." Voice and instrument are still under the control of the same brain, so when you sing with expression - changing tempo, getting louder or softer, running phrases together or separating them - the instrument will follow the voice.

 

Of course you'll want to show off your instrumental skills, too, but showcase them in intros, bridges and outtros or in instrumental verses, where you can concentrate on them fully.

 

Since taking up the Duet concertina, I've found it a good idea to work up full, instrumental arrangements of song tunes, and when I use them for accompaniment, just leave out the right hand. Cuts the amount of concentration required for the instrument in half!

 

Cheers,

John

[Mikefule]

 

 

Generally, people who sing and accompany themselves on an instrument make compromises with both their singing and their playing because there is so much going on.

I'd modify that slightly: you'll have to make compromises in your playing, but don't make compromises in your singing! The accompaniment is only there to support the singing, so factor out anything on the instrumental side that could interfere with your expressive, clear delivery of the tune and words.

 

Cheers,

John

 

In principle, I agree wholeheartedly. In practice, many self-accompanists appear to disagree. I'm not talking specifically about concertinists, but I see too many singer musicians who want to accompany themselves "because they can" and who then end up either drowing out their singing, or singing in too mechanically rythmical a fashion. I am thinking mainly about folk song here, and all those little changes of tempo and tone, blue notes, slides and decorations, can be lost. For this reason, for a serious song, I personally prefer an unaccompanied singer, or a singer accompanied by a separate sensitive musician. or a robust song like a chanty or a comedy song, I am less worried about it. But I emphasise, it is personal taste.

[Anglo-Irishman]

In principle, I agree wholeheartedly. In practice, many self-accompanists appear to disagree. I'm not talking specifically about concertinists, but I see too many singer musicians who want to accompany themselves "because they can" and who then end up either drowing out their singing, or singing in too mechanically rythmical a fashion. I am thinking mainly about folk song here, and all those little changes of tempo and tone, blue notes, slides and decorations, can be lost. For this reason, for a serious song, I personally prefer an unaccompanied singer, or a singer accompanied by a separate sensitive musician. or a robust song like a chanty or a comedy song, I am less worried about it. But I emphasise, it is personal taste.

Mike,

And in practice, I agree wholeheartedly with you!

 

You posting reminds me of a statement I once read about why the concertina experienced a revival in the course of the 1960s "Folk Scare": it was because English folk singers were looking for a traditional kind of accompaniment "without the rhythmic strait-jacket of the guitar."

As I remember it, the folk movement came to us from America, and along with it came the guitar. Singing folk songs to the piano was definitely out in those days, so the guitar it had to be!

 

What a lot of people didn't realise (and some haven't twigged yet) is that American folk music had had the guitar as one of its main instruments for generations, probably brought over by German immigrants like Martin, who had a long tradition of cittern and guitar in their national folk music. So the American folk-song style is heavily influenced by the guitar, and thus heavily rhythmic. You can always find a neat picking pattern on the guitar for an American song. (Or for the waltz songs imported into the British Isles from Germany/Austria, where of course guitar and zither reigned!)

 

Traditional songs of the British Isles, by contrast, developed without a strummed instrument, so the "beat" was not part of the traditional performance style. However, as soon as a guitarist gets involved in an old English song (like "Barbara Allen" for instance) he immediately tries out his three strumming patterns until he finds one that doesn't seem to interfere with the traditional singing too much - and there you have your "rhythmic strait-jacket!"

I imagine this is the kind of thing you have in mind.

 

To be fair to the guitar, a good player of it can find a way to accompany almost anything in an appropriate manner, even without imposing a beat. It is the ineptitude of the average rhythm guitarist that imposes the aforesaid strait-jacket.

 

The virtue of the concertina is that even the most untalented beginner does not have to resort to strumming a beat. He can just try to follow the voice, or press a few chords to provide harmony, without interfering with the singer's timing - especially if he is also the singer!

 

So perhaps my tip of simplifying the self-accompaniment to leave oneself more freedom of vocal expression is more relevant to the concertina than to the guitar, after all!

 

If you're a really good guitarist or concertinist, however, the rule of keeping your self-accompaniments simpler than your instrumental solos still applies.

 

Cheers,

John

[Susanne]

Yes, definitely a Stagi or a Scarlatti rather than a Rochelle.

I started with a Rochelle but it is quite big and chubby and I didn't like it much, it's hard to play in my opinion (of course also because I'm a tiny lady and have small hands). Later on I bought a Scarlatti in Ireland that I started learning on and I've been very happy with it and it has been great to play until I just recently could afford a better one. Scarlatti and Stagi are very similar. The bellows will be stiff in the beginning and they're not great but at least you have something to start on until you can afford a better concertina.

[Mikefule]

However, as soon as a guitarist gets involved in an old English song (like "Barbara Allen" for instance) he immediately tries out his three strumming patterns until he finds one that doesn't seem to interfere with the traditional singing too much - and there you have your "rhythmic strait-jacket!"

 

 

Cheers,

John

 

Obviously it's a matter of personal taste. However, I went with my wife to a local folk club for the one and only time that I will visit that particular club. Including "floor singers" and the guest, every single performance was a song accompanied in what I can only think of as the "THUMB twangy twangy THUMB twangy twangy style."

 

I love a well played guitar. Both my lads play guitar (one has bass as his main instrument) and both play with variety and sensitivity. My music collection contains everythign from punk and heavy metal through jazz to folk, and a lot of it features guitar prominently. However, there is something infinitely dismal about a perfectly good folk song accompanied in this dreadful way.

 

But perhaps I have drifted too far from the original subject. Original poster: buy a Rochelle but be prepared to upgrade pretty quickly if you really take to it. Don't buy anything less than a Rochelle because it will put you off in days. If you are 100% certain that you will take to it, buy the best box you can afford. A nice vintage box will generally be a pleasure to own and will sound good. :-)

[hjcjones]

Although I guitarist myself, I agree that it isn't really suited to English folk music unless you can develop a style which accommodates the song, rather than forcing the song to accommodate the guitar. Nic Jones and Martin Carthy are obvious examples of this. It doesn't help that the term "folk guitar" is often used as a euphemism by tutors to mean "simple strummed 3-chord trick", or at best easy pattern-picking.

 

Floor singers are both a weakness and a strength of the folk club system. You'll find good and bad performers, and all too often they see no need to improve. Some clubs also put participation above quality. However some floor singers are excellent, and many do gigs in their own right. I've been fortunate to spend many enjoyable evenings at folk clubs because of, as well as despite, the floor singers.

 

Turning to concertinas, Steve Turner is a great accompanist on EC. His style reminds me very much of Nic Jones's guitar, providing a steady rhythmic pulse over which he is able to sing more freely. At the other extreme, Peter Bellamy's anglo accompaniments usually followed the song wherever it was going, rather than the song following the accompaniment. John Kirkpatrick and Brian Peters are other examples of excellent accompanists.

 

The important thing is to prioritise the song, both in the arrangement and actual performance. Also, practice until you can't get it wrong.