F# Roll On A G/c 30 Buttons Concertina

[Steven]

Precisely my description of a "roll", but I wasn't referring to his whistle playing, nor to descriptions, but to the concertina playing on his mp3. There are several places where he plays three identical notes in quick succession, but on none of them can I hear any grace notes. My description -- and my understanding from other instruments -- is that with the grace notes it's a "roll", but without them it's just three notes.

Ah, gotcha. Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the description.

 

As for what you say here about rolls versus "just three notes," I agree with you completely. I would not, however, call it a triplet if it lacks the grace notes, because at least in my understanding a triplet takes the same amount of time as a quarter note, not a dotted quarter (or three eight notes). Three eighth notes in succession, whatever the notes might be, are "just three notes."

 

Steven

[Frank Edgley]

JIM: "I don't really want to argue, Frank, but I do get tired of people quoting Brendán's book as if it were the word of God. In my experience, his notations of the ornaments are simply wrong."

RES> I don't know about "the Word of God", but Brenach's book is a well respected authority on Irish Trad music. I merely used that example to illustrate the fact that rolls are played differently on different instruments, not the actual gracenotes in the book. Although, even though I'm not an expert on all those instruments, I would say that he (Brenach) probably knew more about the subject than either of us.

As for the Comhaltas tin whistle tutor, two points:

1/ it illustrates that there is less than universal agreement on how rolls are played (if it indeed is different than Coel Rince), and

2/ it is a whistle tutor. As far as I know, it makes no claim as to how to play rolls on other instruments.

As to the word "wrong," it is a word that really has limited relevance in traditional music. "Musical", "Unmusical", Traditional", Non-traditional", Typical, "Atypical" are far more relevant. You will find many different ways to embellish notes when you listen to different top players. I'm not saying that Brenach's rolls are right or wrong, unless there has been a typo. The judgement that he is right or wrong is best left to authorities with more credentials. Otherwise, the word "wrong" is merely an opinion.

[JimLucas]

As to the word "wrong," it is a word that really has limited relevance in traditional music.

Funny. I'm the one who usally says that.

But as I said, Brendán's notations of rolls in general are rhythmically at variance with any and all of the many traditional musicians I've heard. And the specific notes he indicates for at least two of the whistle rolls are are not what I've observed -- or been taught -- by any of the many whistle players I've encountered, while those in the Comhaltas tutor are. So I consider it dubious to take his notations as definitive of the tradition, which so many people do.

[Sandy Winters]

Jim, I do intend 'crisp' to mean 'short' but not in terms of rhythmic value, but instead in terms of duration, that is, stacatto.

 

In traditional Irish music (and especially modern Irish concertina style) the use of a triplet to embellish a quarter note is much more often than not performed as 2 sixteenths and an eighth, rather than the 'formal' triplet of three equal duration notes squeezed into a quarter note's time. The term I use for this is "Irish triplet', a term that I was taught by one of the masters of the Irish concertina style. I would never execute a quarter note triplet embellishment with an eighth followed by two sixteenths. It just wouldn't be stylistic.

 

I agree with Frank that the application of terms from the lexicon of classically trained (or what I prefer to call 'formally' trained) musicians is often misguided when describing or discussing traditional music, especially if the discussion is not restricted to people with formal training.

 

By way of example: Norman Blake (fine old-time guitarist) uses the term 'roll' to describe a technique that is not in any way related to the type of roll(s) being discussed here. Indeed , a fine traditional Irish banjo player here in Chicago uses the term 'roll' to describe that same technique.

 

"What (you) would consider a roll" (... F#--d--F#--B--F#) may indeed be a roll in the lexicon of formal music (where's the note below the melody note??) but I'm fairly certain that most of even the very best traditional style anglo concertina players wouldn't describe that pattern as what they consider to be a roll.

 

Of course, play rolls any way you want to, but the farther away you get from the stylistic elements of traditional Irish concertina style, the less the performance remains in the tradition. This is neither here nor there, good or bad. Breaking rules is fine. But there is no honor in breaking rules without an awareness of what the rules are.

 

I'm not implying that you don't know the rules, only that my posts here at C.net only appear when I feel (rightly or wrongly) that I can be of some help with advice to someone seeking help or advice. Azelin should know what is a 'typical' (Frank's word) method to ornament notes. I'm assuming that Azelin is interested in traditional Irish music because of the clips that were submitted for consideration.

 

I could be wrong.....

[Guest Peter Laban]

So I consider it dubious to take his notations as definitive of the tradition, which so many people do.

Breandan Breathnach was the first tot write irish music as he heard it played. it is only in vol 2 of Ceol rinnce na hEirreann that he used a full written version of the ornament used, in all other volumes he used the 'half moon' symbol (though some have called it a nail clipping) to indicate the player whose music was being transcribed used some form of ornamentation. To suggest his transcriptions would not be true to the tradition seems wide off the mark.

[Azalin]

Thanks for all the replies concerning my "mysterious" roll on the F#. I think I'll basically need to hear it in person, and see someone play it, there's just too much theory and I'm just bad at reading what I'm supposed to play, I need to hear and see, so I'll be in Ireland for almost three weeks in november, should have loads of concertina lessons there :-)

 

In the meantime, I'm very happy with a technique I'm using the simulate my whistle rolls on the concertina (on the F#, but can be applied elsewhere). I'm not sure if it's similar to what Frank described as a slap roll, but I'm simply slapping the left side and the right side of the concertina to "cut" the notes, and it's very, very similar to what I'm trying to achieve, at least related to a roll on the whistle. Here's a clip of a tune I didnt want to learn until I could manage something on the F#.

 

http://www.metayer.info/mp3/VOICE162.MP3

 

Please let me know what you think of the "roll" on the F#, does it suck to your hear? You prefer the other ways of embelishing a three quarter notes?

[JimLucas]

Breandan Breathnach was the first to write irish music as he heard it played.

So what? There are lots of people -- including trained folklorists -- writing inaccurate transcriptions of music. "First in print" isn't necessarily the same as "most accurate".

 

it is only in vol 2 of Ceol rinnce na hEirreann that he used a full written version of the ornament used, in all other volumes he used the 'half moon' symbol

Not true. In his unnumbered volume (which I presume is vol. 1) he uses the 'half moon' in the tune transcriptions, but he details their structure with transcriptions on pp. xii-xiii, and it's those transcriptions that I'm taking issue with. Breandán almost certainly had more experience with Irish music and musicians than I do, but I still have a great deal, and when my experience differs from his book, I prefer to trust my experience. In the end, I recommend that everyone else do the same... i.e., listen to the traditional musicians and try to play what you hear, and if someone has written something different, consider it a variation, not a correction.

[JimLucas]

Please let me know what you think of the "roll" on the F#, does it suck to your hear?

Sounds good! Worth working on. I can't say that I've ever heard anyone else do quite the same thing, but maybe they should. Maybe you could teach the rest of us?

 

You prefer the other ways of embelishing a three quarter notes?

I prefer having a variety of ways to choose from. Yours adds one more. Good!

 

I still wouldn't call it a "roll", of course, just because I think it's useful to be able to distinguish between the three notes with intervening grace notes and the same three without.

[JimLucas]

I would never execute a quarter note triplet embellishment with an eighth followed by two sixteenths. It just wouldn't be stylistic.

OK. I may have been confused about what you intended. If you intended a quarter-note triplet followed by a 8th note, fine. But I would consider that to be something entirely distinct from a "roll", which is what I thought you were trying to describe. In a roll on a dotted quarter, as I understand the concept, either the three repetitions of the base note (not to be confused with "bass" note ) are equal or the first is longer than the other two.

 

I agree with Frank that the application of terms from the lexicon of classically trained (or what I prefer to call 'formally' trained) musicians is often misguided when describing or discussing traditional music, especially if the discussion is not restricted to people with formal training.

I agree, too. What I've been taking as the basis for my position is not any "formal" training -- except in the accurate use of music notation, -- but what I have learned from traditional Irish musicians I've associated with over the years. But I've had much less contact with Irish concertina players than with whistlers, fluters, pipers, and fiddlers, and it seems from this discussion that the concertinists are much less consistent than those others in both their terminology and the actual ornaments they play. There may also be differences in dialect (usage of individual words) among different groups of musicians. (We've certainly found that to be true with regard to the term "single jig". )

 

By way of example: Norman Blake (fine old-time guitarist) uses the term 'roll' to describe a technique that is not in any way related to the type of roll(s) being discussed here. Indeed , a fine traditional Irish banjo player here in Chicago uses the term 'roll' to describe that same technique.

Sure. The meanings of many words depend on context, e.g., an archery "bow" vs. a "bow" knot. Or a "roll" in a bakery....

 

"What (you) would consider a roll" (... F#--d--F#--B--F#) may indeed be a roll in the lexicon of formal music (where's the note below the melody note??)

Inaccurate quoting there, since what I said was "more like what I would consider a roll". Without the note below, it wouldn't fit what I'm used to as the definition of a roll (ornaments both up and down, like a "rolling" wave), but it's sort of a hybrid between a roll and a cran. On the other hand, if one is going to extend the meaning of the term "roll", that's less of a stretch than most of the other suggestions. But again, I'm talking about the term as used by traditional players of whistle, fiddle, etc. As far as I know, there is no ornament called a 'roll' "in the lexicon of formal music".

 

...the farther away you get from the stylistic elements of traditional Irish concertina style, the less the performance remains in the tradition.

A reasonable statement on the face of it, but what I think I'm learning here is that the "stylistic elements" on concertina depart not only from those on other instruments, but also vary more among the traditional players than for the other instruments. In any case, my objection -- if that's what it is -- is not to the ornaments themselves, but to calling them by names that are inconsistent with what those names mean to players of other instruments. Like calling an accordion a "concertina". But as I indicated above, I may be too late, and all I can do is present my viewpoint, not demand that everyone else adopt it. It seems that to concertina players any ornamentation of a dotted quarter-note is called a "roll". I'll learn to live with it.

 

But whatever you call them, all those ornaments do help add interest and variety to the music.

[Guest Peter Laban]

[but he details their structure with transcriptions on pp. xii-xiii, and it's those transcriptions that I'm taking issue with. Breandán almost certainly had more experience with Irish music and musicians than I do, but I still have a great deal, and when my experience differs from his book, I prefer to trust my experience. In the end, I recommend that everyone else do the same... i.e., listen to the traditional musicians and try to play what you hear, and if someone has written something different, consider it a variation, not a correction.

I agree wit hyou on the listening part but not on the transcription part. if you take issue with the way Breandan notated his rolls in the appendix i still think it's not fair to dismiss his transcription work.

 

re the whsitle rolls, i assume you take issue with the way he notated the rhtyhmic approach to the roll, as far as I can see the actual content (the notes) is pretty much the standard one. The appendix was added to accommodate strangers t othe music really,a rough guide to some standard ornamentation. The half moon symbol was in place to assure every player would add the ornamentation of his own choice. Breandan would have told you to listen to get it right. much as you do yourself.

[JimLucas]

re the whsitle rolls, i assume you take issue with the way he notated the rhythmic approach to the roll,...

Actually, that's true of the rolls he gives for all the instruments. Most are notated as two strong repetitions of the base note, with intervening grace notes, rather than the three strong repetitions that to me define a roll. He relegates the middle repetition of the base note to being just another grace note.

 

... as far as I can see the actual content (the notes) is pretty much the standard one.

Should I nit pick by saying that I consider the rhythmic content to be even more important as "content" than the individual notes? As for the notes, those for the F#, G, and B rolls look OK, but I'm used to the E roll almost always using A instead of G and the A roll using C#, not B. And while I wouldn't expect a "roll" on the C# or high D, there's often some ornament.

 

In fact, one "problem" with Breandán's tune transcriptions (and just about everybody else's) is that he doesn't tell us what instruments they were transcribed from. It's not just that different instruments play the ornaments differently, but often the different instruments play ornaments in different places. E.g., where the whistle or pipes might roll an A, a fiddler might well just give it a strong accent and hold it, maybe double-stopping it with a D or E, and maybe not.

 

But even the same musician will often vary whether they ornament in a particular place, or where they ornament a tune on different repetitions. Many of us know that, but many beginners get caught in the trap of assuming that there's only one "right" way, even down to the last millisecond. OK, I've digressed. But I don't think we have any serious disagreements, only different perspectives. I think I'll go play some music, now.

[Azalin]

Sounds good!  Worth working on.  I can't say that I've ever heard anyone else do quite the same thing, but maybe they should.  Maybe you could teach the rest of us?

 

Eh, thanks for the moral support :-) I do my "ornament" by slapping the sides of the concertina, nothing fancy really. But I don't think I'm ready quite yet to develop a technique that's going to change the whole way people play concertina :-D I guess I'll do that for now but I'll really try to learn how to play a "real" concertina roll while I'm in Ireland.

Edited September 3, 2004 by Azalin

[Frank Edgley]

JIM: "Should I nit pick by saying that I consider the rhythmic content to be even more important as "content" than the individual notes?"

 

RES> I would agree with you on this.

[Guest Peter Laban]

In fact, one "problem" with Breandán's tune transcriptions (and just about everybody else's) is that he doesn't tell us what instruments they were transcribed from.

I don't think we have major disagreement either. breathnach does give the sources of his tunes and the instrument played so you can in fact see where the tune came from.

 

Paul de Grae did a wonderful job translating the notes to Ceol Rinnce into English, adding information from his own research. This can be found on nigel Gatherer's website (sorry don't have the address handy) Very helpful stuff indeed.