Lifting off the knee

[fearfeasog]

hey all, I'm still learning, 3 months in making progress. got my hands on a Morse Céilí 30b Anglo as a rental after 90 days of Rochelle.

 

So my question is--I notice many C'tina players lifting the instrument off their knee as they play, obviously for a reason. Can someone explain to me what's going on there--why a player would do that?

 

Thanks!

 

Here's an example--about 35 seconds in there's a close-up of the 'tina and the lifting:

 

http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_339_3_seamus_o_mongain_and_seamus_dean/

[wes]

This is actually a paranormal event when it occurs. Believe me, when it happens to you, your life will never be the same again. Little did the original designers of the concertina imagine the combined effects of sound, technology and the sheer joy of the player! When all comes together precisely, the effect is a loss of gravity on the little beast and sense of 'lift'. In your hands, the instrument will feel pulled upwards and away from you. You can see from all the examples in video, of the player bringing it back safely to the knee. So don't worry about it, just accept it for what it is and keep playing.

Another strange anomaly that belongs to the 'unexplained'.

[Anglo-Irishman]

So my question is--I notice many C'tina players lifting the instrument off their knee as they play, obviously for a reason. Can someone explain to me what's going on there--why a player would do that?

 

fearfeasog,

 

I couldn't open the video you posted, but if it's what I think it is, it's something to bear in mind.

 

I've noticed a tendency among beginners to think that you play musical instruments with your fingers. Or, specifically to the concertina, press the buttons with your fingers while working the bellows with your forearms.

 

This is a notion that we must get rid of as quickly as possible!

 

As soon as we have all the notes of a new piece together, we should start making music out of them. And music is artistic expression, and should exude from our entire body and soul (to put it rather grandly). That means emphasising some notes and glossing over others, and phrasing some notes together while separating them from others. All this is done by very subtle variances of volume, duration, tempo, and staccato and legato playing. Just one note after the other is not expressive - we need to think and feel in larger units.

 

The fingers and forearms, of course, are busy doing what they have to do - finding the notes and pumping air - so the phrasing and espression have to come from somewhere else. This is why you'll see good instrumental soloists moving all the time.

Pianists lean forward and back. Violinists rotate the torso from the hips. Clarinettists wave their instrument about. Jazz saxophonists bend back, pushing the sax to arm's length, then bend forward, bringing the bell beside the hip.

All these movements, though not directly involved in producing the correct notes, nevertheless influence the note production. Not from note to note, like the fingers, but from start to finish of a phrase, because these movements are larger and slower than the finger movements. Raising and lowering your concertina is part of this.

 

And it's not just your body that is involved. Try smiling as you play a happy little piece of music, or putting on a thoughtful expression as you play something elegaic. Your body language adapts to the mood, and causes your fingers to play the same notes subtly differently. And, if you're playing to a live audience, your visual expression and body language reinforce the effect of the sounds that come out.

 

The beginners are not to blame for playing note by note, because we are always talking about what note on what button when, and whether to fan the bellows or draw them parallel, and this gives a beginner enough to cope with. But as soon as the hands achieve a certain level of competence, the rest of the body should get involved. Being relaxed is an important factor, and this comes with practice and confidence.

 

Cheers,

John

[fearfeasog]

Ah, a Religious Ecstasy! A Transformative Experience! Something the highly tuned members of the Inner Circle of Concertina Virtuoso have attained. Gittin' DOWN wit' yo' bad Concertina Playin' Self.

 

I dig it.

 

And here I honestly thought it was some specific technique thing. But is some not-so-specific etc etc...

 

I'll get there.

 

[Chris Ghent]

Perhaps it is, as AngloIrishman says, a form of self expression akin to dance, but I understand it as a device used by those looking for more dynamic capacity in an instrument too easily played in a wooden fashion. The only simple dynamic available is volume; changing your holding position can influence the timbre of the notes being played at the time. It might be a small difference in tone but in the right hands it is effective. Noel Hill may be the best known exponent of this style of playing. Recently I saw him live for the first time and while I can hear little of this in his Cds, in person it is electrifying.

 

If you want to try this in a simple and easily understood form, make a chord using the notes which have pads under your palm and while the chord is sounding move your hand out of the way and hear the upper partials chime in. Now find a way to build that into your interpretation of a relevant piece. As regards the timbre change when lifting the concertina into the air, I can hear a difference, tiny but there.

[JimLucas]

So my question is--I notice many C'tina players lifting the instrument off their knee as they play, obviously for a reason. Can someone explain to me what's going on there--why a player would do that?

Wild speculation: Imitation -- conscious or even unconscious -- of a technique used by uilleann pipers?

 

Of course, whatever the reason for trying it in the first place, once a player notices that -- as Chris noted -- it makes a difference in the sound, it becomes a technique worth using.

[fearfeasog]

So my question is--I notice many C'tina players lifting the instrument off their knee as they play, obviously for a reason. Can someone explain to me what's going on there--why a player would do that?

Wild speculation: Imitation -- conscious or even unconscious -- of a technique used by uilleann pipers?

 

Of course, whatever the reason for trying it in the first place, once a player notices that -- as Chris noted -- it makes a difference in the sound, it becomes a technique worth using.

 

i thought pipers HAD to lift to get to certain notes. right? anyway, sounds like the lifting for concertina players is part of the magic, not so much the science, of playing. I'll give it a go.

[david_boveri]

Ah, a Religious Ecstasy! A Transformative Experience! Something the highly tuned members of the Inner Circle of Concertina Virtuoso have attained. Gittin' DOWN wit' yo' bad Concertina Playin' Self.

 

I dig it.

 

And here I honestly thought it was some specific technique thing. But is some not-so-specific etc etc...

 

I'll get there.

 

 

i would disagree. it is definitely a specific technique, but not everyone uses it as such, or develops it intentionally. i can't speak on how other's use it or develop it, as i assume they only think about it for the notes that they want to accentuate by lifting. however, i can definitely say that i myself have deliberately studied the lift-up very methodically. depending on where students are at in their playing, i have been known teach a note by note approach for lifting of the concertina! keep in mind that i never keep the concertina still and am always lifting up or pushing the concertina down into my knee, even if it is not visible to the casual observer.

 

i don't burden most of my students with learning this, because my approach requires rethinking the posturing for every single note you play at all times, and it is very difficult to integrate into your playing. it may be surprising, but i actually have a very basic set of fundamentals on how i use gravity (which is engaged by lifting) or the side of my leg to shape each note (which is engaged by leaving on the leg as well as pushing into it). i follow these principles for every note i play.

 

in practicality, however, things become more complicated, though the fundamental principles of my own technique remain. for example, i inevitably will have to lift a note that i would rather leave on my leg, because i want to lift the notes before and after it. sometimes i even push a note into my leg that i REALLY want to take off the knee but can't because it will make the following note choke. this is just a basic function of speed and time. i compensate for this and make compromises by using movements of my body, stabilizing the instrument with a finger, or by applying a secondary pressure to the most visible one (i.e. i may be pushing into my leg, but i twist the side of the bellows that is not on my leg).

 

even when i am not lifting the concertina visibly, i am pulling up and down very specifically for very definite purposes. although i agree that it's best not to overthink things i can definitely watch a video of me playing and reconstruct very specifically why i lifted up or pressed down at each moment. although i will not break down every major liftup of the concertina, here is an example of a video where i am lifting up for very specific reasons:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjVoJBTuBRs#t=2m52s

 

at about 3:00 into the video can see me lift up on a high A. that is very deliberately and extensively practiced. i am mimicking the phrasing of a fiddler that i play with all the time in chicago (not in the video). at 3:08 and other places you will see me lift the concertina above my head... this is an exaggeration done to get people's attention, because of the very intimate nature of the venue, but there are certain sounds that i can only get above my head.

 

feel free to rewind and watch the beginning of the video. you will see that i am playing very tight and not lifting up very much, if at all (when the camera is on me, at least). when i play very tight rhythmically you will see very little lifting: in other words: the tighter i am trying to play, the more i reduce my extraneous movements.

 

if you want to see an example of how i do "micro" lifts that you cannot usually see, at ~3:29 you will see me play a high A but without the lift up as before. notice that my stomach juts out in conjunction with the A. that is NOT an accident, and as i have learned how to move my ab muscles (etc) to enhance the tone of individual notes. i would like to point out, however, that it is very much similar to how anglo-irishman says: a lot of it is intuitive and automatic. i can say that i have practiced every possible movement, angle, and lift of the concertina, and have spent extensive time studying how my own body affects the sound--especially the influence of the abdominals (obliques can do amazing things!) and the height of the shoulder blades muscles, all in conjunction with the movement of my arm, chest, and shoulder muscles.

 

this next video, in contrast, shows a much looser style that is not so rhythmically tight, where there was a lot more room for subtlety in phrasing and tone coloration. it is perhaps a better illustration of my holistic approach to concertina playing than the above video, but i present it second because my movements are less exaggerate. in the previous video, i did a lot of very noticeable lift-ups, but in this video, there are more swells and whole body movements to accentuate notes rather than just a simple lifting of the instrument.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_NXCYUtpQ8

 

although i would love to pick out some specific movements and talk more about them, i think i will let the video speak for itself. i think it is enough to know that movements make a difference, but i don't know that it is very helpful to study them until your phrasing has gotten to the point that they become essential. i think that is a good note to end this part of my response on: it's all about phrasing. please walk away realizing that even though i have studied and practiced these movements in depth, i never plan them ahead. i just go with the sounds i hear in my head and try to make the sounds coming out of my instrument match.

Edited September 27, 2012 by david_boveri

[david_boveri]

the forum cut my post off, so i am including my other replies here.

 

Perhaps it is, as AngloIrishman says, a form of self expression akin to dance, but I understand it as a device used by those looking for more dynamic capacity in an instrument too easily played in a wooden fashion. The only simple dynamic available is volume; changing your holding position can influence the timbre of the notes being played at the time. It might be a small difference in tone but in the right hands it is effective. Noel Hill may be the best known exponent of this style of playing. Recently I saw him live for the first time and while I can hear little of this in his Cds, in person it is electrifying.

 

If you want to try this in a simple and easily understood form, make a chord using the notes which have pads under your palm and while the chord is sounding move your hand out of the way and hear the upper partials chime in. Now find a way to build that into your interpretation of a relevant piece. As regards the timbre change when lifting the concertina into the air, I can hear a difference, tiny but there.

 

here is a great example of noel playing, which includes liftups and the micro-lifts that i referred to earlier in this post.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llgUjNzsrG4

 

 

So my question is--I notice many C'tina players lifting the instrument off their knee as they play, obviously for a reason. Can someone explain to me what's going on there--why a player would do that?

Wild speculation: Imitation -- conscious or even unconscious -- of a technique used by uilleann pipers?

 

Of course, whatever the reason for trying it in the first place, once a player notices that -- as Chris noted -- it makes a difference in the sound, it becomes a technique worth using.

 

no, i would not say that it is because of pipers. everyone is different, but i use the lift off the knee to copy the phrasing of fiddle players. from the pipes i get chords and ornamentation.

 

So my question is--I notice many C'tina players lifting the instrument off their knee as they play, obviously for a reason. Can someone explain to me what's going on there--why a player would do that?

Wild speculation: Imitation -- conscious or even unconscious -- of a technique used by uilleann pipers?

 

Of course, whatever the reason for trying it in the first place, once a player notices that -- as Chris noted -- it makes a difference in the sound, it becomes a technique worth using.

 

i thought pipers HAD to lift to get to certain notes. right? anyway, sounds like the lifting for concertina players is part of the magic, not so much the science, of playing. I'll give it a go.

 

yes, they have to lift the pipes for the low D. as far as i understand, you can lift them up for other notes only in very specific circumstances (for tone coloration, etc), but it is not something you would do all the time. basicall, when you do your scale the bottom D is off the knee and the rest are planted firmly down. the reason for this is that the bottom D needs to be vented or the pipes choke up and make no sound. all other notes are vented by the fingers rather than the liftup.

[fearfeasog]

Thanks so much David! I don't wanna quote all that inline here, but it's great perspective--something more for me to think about. Absolutely makes sense, and I'm sure it will even more once my playing is more "up to speed."

 

 

ff

[wes]

Here's yet another fine example of the lift:

i don't post links so you might have to remove the quote marks.

 

Tony's playing is magical, with or without lifting the instrument. If there wasn't so much reverb in this church series, a person could work out all the notes.

 

A prior comment mentioned that in the live performance it (the lifting) was 'electrifying' but hardly able to hear on a recording. I say its more for effect on the audience, and only slightly changes the sound. It does change the sound to the player, but as we know the concertina sounds quite different from a few chairs back. If you watch Tony in the video, he is so taken with the music that he is creating, and there is a lot of improvisation going on, that the box just attempts to levitate into the air and he forcibly pulls it back down!! I say his performance that day tapped into the universal mind. again.....paranormal....

[fearfeasog]

 

 

here is a great example of noel playing, which includes liftups and the micro-lifts that i referred to earlier in this post.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llgUjNzsrG4

 

 

Damn audio was off. but Noel speaks lovely Irish anyway.

[Chris Ghent]

A prior comment mentioned that in the live performance it (the lifting) was 'electrifying' but hardly able to hear on a recording. I say its more for effect on the audience, and only slightly changes the sound. It does change the sound to the player, but as we know the concertina sounds quite different from a few chairs back.

A couple of points; you have misread me, I did not say you could hardly hear it on a recording, I said I could not hear it in Noel Hill CD releases, and I now think of these as being poor recordings. I also think AngloIrishman's point about body movement is valid and such movement would not be just for an audience to look at, it would be an aid to getting a better musical performance. Finally, I wonder if people with heavier concertinas are going to be so free and easy with lifting them. The classic wooden ended Wheatstone was very light and a Carroll lighter still. They might be half the weight of a 38 Jeffries or Suttner. More helium perhaps...

[Steve Mansfield]

I know you guys are discussing anglo technique: but from the EC side here's a video (taken at a gig I had the enormous pleasure of also being at on Monday) of Alistair Anderson, giving a fairly extreme demonstration of how moving the concertina around can influence the tone and colour ...

 

 

 

 

[Chris Drinkwater]

I know you guys are discussing anglo technique: but from the EC side here's a video (taken at a gig I had the enormous pleasure of also being at on Monday) of Alistair Anderson, giving a fairly extreme demonstration of how moving the concertina around can influence the tone and colour ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brilliant. I had the pleasure, yet again, of seeing Alistair performing at The Towersey Folk Festival, at the end of August. He really is the master of the "freestyle" bellows technique. I recently saw Tim Laycock, Crane duet player and singer, performing in London and he plays in a very similar freehand style to gain maximum benefit from the use of the bellows and the doppler effect, ending his set with a lovely tune featuring various imitations of bell peals, as part of the tune.

 

Chris

[Anglo-Irishman]

Here's yet another fine example of the lift:

i don't post links so you might have to remove the quote marks.

 

Tony's playing is magical, with or without lifting the instrument. If there wasn't so much reverb in this church series, a person could work out all the notes.

 

Wes,

 

The point is, would his playing be so magical if he didn't lift the concertina?

 

Also note in this clip that Tony's head is moving all the time, and so is his torso. It's almost as if his body were choreographed to the music - but that's most probably not the case! It's just that the "inner music" that is driving his fingers on the concertina is also driving his whole body, and this makes his fingers do a more complete job.

 

Notice also that Tony doesn't tap his foot, as many folk musicians do. Strictly speaking, foot-tapping is on a note-by-note basis, so it adds nothing to the expression of the music. If you move your head, body and arms on a phrase-by-phrase basis, or to some emphasised note in the tune, you shouldn't really need to synchronise yourself on every second beat.

 

Alistair Anderson, giving a fairly extreme demonstration of how moving the concertina around can influence the tone and colour ...

 

 

 

Interesting example! Here, Alistair is playing in a duo with the banjo-picker, who is not exactly as stiff as a statue either! They give an impression of "collective improvisation," where it's important to know exactly what your partner is doing and going to do. The body language is akin to what an orchestra conductor does to get everybody to create the same expression at the same time. If Alistair were playing the same piece alone, the movements probably wouldn't be so exaggerated.

 

So that's another spin-off of concertina-lifting and associated movements - intra-group communication. Good group players maintain eye-contact with each other, at least at critical points in the piece, and react to each other's body language.

 

Cheers,

John

[JimLucas]

If Alistair were playing the same piece alone, the movements probably wouldn't be so exaggerated.

That sounds as if you've never actually seen Alistair performing solo.

 

Depending on the piece and his mood at the moment, it can be even more of a "whole body" experience.

[fearfeasog]

I know you guys are discussing anglo technique: but from the EC side here's a video (taken at a gig I had the enormous pleasure of also being at on Monday) of Alistair Anderson, giving a fairly extreme demonstration of how moving the concertina around can influence the tone and colour ...

 

 

 

wow. that fealla's nutty! in a good way. you definitely hear the effects of the movement there.