Andy Holder Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi there. I'm fixing up a Wheatstone English which I think may have had baffles in when made, the raised fixing pads are there. There's no trace of any now so, should I reinstate them and, if so, what is the best material for baffles? I haven't had chance to compare with and without, how much difference does it make to the sound quality and were they there mainly for the appearance or the acoustics? Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hi there. I'm fixing up a Wheatstone English which I think may have had baffles in when made, the raised fixing pads are there. There's no trace of any now so, should I reinstate them and, if so, what is the best material for baffles? I haven't had chance to compare with and without, how much difference does it make to the sound quality and were they there mainly for the appearance or the acoustics? Thanks, Andy As I understand it the purpose of true baffles is to moderate and balance the tone of the instrument. I believe that the finely-woven fabric that lines the inside of the ends of my particular instrument must have some effect in softening its tone and reducing volume a little. It certainly has a visual impact and also prevents ingress of dust and other unwelcome foreign matter into the mechanical guts of the instrument. matter into the mechanical guts of the instrument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) The original Baffle material could have either been very thin wood (Spruce or similar)which would suggest a very early model,or very thin leather of a stiff-ish nature. This type of Baffle, that rests on "stand-offs" (so as to allow the air to pass by at the sides) does a great job of hiding the internal workings, however,it also does a good job of masking the sound. If you want a delicate-soft-smooth tone these baffles will give it. It is interesting that Wheatstone put the maker's label and serial number on these baffles, in the earlier instruments when the Baffles were in fashion, which is why these recognition features are sometimes lost, when Baffles fell from favour and were removed.Had the makers intended that the baffles would thus be a permanent part of the instrument or was it just a covenient place to stick the labels ? Obviously the baffles have been removed, and a some stage their use was discontinued in new instruments, so do you replace them for 'Originality' or go with the later thinking and leave them out ? Today people expect a musical instrument to produce noise, a good solid sound, most other instruments are louder. Perhaps there is just more noise about these days? Now that we have got rid of those horses and carts that grind and clip-clop , those noisy motor vehicles with little exhaust suppression... and fitted double glass windows and insulation to our buildings, have amplification systems at most musical functions... etc etc etc. So, why did the Victorians need baffles in their Concertinas ? I assume they were a different class of clientelle...genteel ladies of the big houses, people with sensitive, and well worn, ears. They had servants who swept and mopped the floors quietly (probably before the musicians awoke in the morning) and did not run around the place with a Vacuum Cleaner that hums loudly in Eb when you are trying to play in D!!! Oh!!.. the tribulations of the modern Concertinist (blah-blah-blah).... no no throw the baffles away... PS; I took the fine Gauze filter out of one of my concertinas, and it was really only there to keep small insects from exploring the internals, and was amazed at the increase in power . This shows that when you rob a bank you need to shout very loudly through the stocking that is masking your face Edited January 3, 2012 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 This shows that when you rob a bank you need to shout very loudly through the stocking that is masking your face Ha, I love it Geoff. Although you need to rob a bank to buy many of the latest crop of instruments! I don't want to mask the sound, however, I'm not a great fan of being able to see the internals so maybe I'll re-instate some thin gauze type stuff and see what it does. Thanks all. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I've put gauze/light cloth INTO concertinas and didn't find much difference. It did stop bits of fluff (particularly from one of my sweaters) from getting in so I would always do this at least. Looks better too. (What DID affect the sound, incidentally, was cleaning the filth and tarnish off the inside of a metal end. Made it much clearer and brighter. Well worth doing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apprenticeOF Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 It's quite likely that the baffles were leather, which is what the one I'm working on has. Hard to compare as I've only gotten as far as "sort of playable" with the restoration, and it is the old high pitch tuning. I played a few bars of Motherless Child on it, and compared with a Lachenal with cloth, and my wife's Aeola with gauze. Definitely not as bright, and better suited to that type of tune, but still much brighter than brass reeds. The Wheatstone with the leather baffles seems to have as much or more "power" than the Lachenal with cloth. There is an excellent article at concertina.com regarding baffles in duets, which may be of interest to you. I plan to leave them in, as I like the sound. I guess it really comes down to personal preference. The good thing is that you can add/remove them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 It's quite likely that the baffles were leather, which is what the one I'm working on has. Hard to compare as I've only gotten as far as "sort of playable" with the restoration, and it is the old high pitch tuning. I played a few bars of Motherless Child on it, and compared with a Lachenal with cloth, and my wife's Aeola with gauze. Definitely not as bright, and better suited to that type of tune, but still much brighter than brass reeds. The Wheatstone with the leather baffles seems to have as much or more "power" than the Lachenal with cloth. There is an excellent article at concertina.com regarding baffles in duets, which may be of interest to you. I plan to leave them in, as I like the sound. I guess it really comes down to personal preference. The good thing is that you can add/remove them. Still not sure. D'you know what they did to the leather to make it a stiff as a board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Still not sure. D'you know what they did to the leather to make it a stiff as a board? As I recall the leather was like parchment... perhaps Goat or Sheep... and it is possible that the stiffness, or some of it,came with age ?? You could probably use a stiff Paper like that used by Watercolourists. Geoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Still not sure. D'you know what they did to the leather to make it a stiff as a board? As I recall the leather was like parchment... perhaps Goat or Sheep... and it is possible that the stiffness, or some of it,came with age ?? You could probably use a stiff Paper like that used by Watercolourists. Geoff. That would be good, perhaps a slightly grainy hand made paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Still not sure. D'you know what they did to the leather to make it a stiff as a board? As I recall the leather was like parchment... perhaps Goat or Sheep... and it is possible that the stiffness, or some of it,came with age ?? You could probably use a stiff Paper like that used by Watercolourists. Geoff. That would be good, perhaps a slightly grainy hand made paper. Yes that sounds good. Perhaps a Cream or Biscuit colour might be nice with the newly finnished ends and Bushes.Geoff. Edited January 4, 2012 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Drinkwater Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 My 1854 wooden-ended, brass-reeded Wheatstone baritone English had had its original wooden baffles removed when I bought it a few years ago. (presumably so that it could complete with the nearest piano accordion in sessions - vandal!) I managed to get some thin spruce, used to make guitar tops, from a luthier, and Colin Dipper very expertly used it to make a pair of new baffles, which he fitted, to restore it to near its original condition. The original baffles were probably made from Russian pine, so Colin told me. Anyway, it doesn't sound quite as loud as did before, but I don't mind and it looks gorgeous. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 My 1856/7 brass-reeded Wheatstone Baritone came with the baffles removed (for volume increase) but came with the concertina - I found that when I refitted them they didn't reduce the volume that much BUT it did get rid of some unwanted, what I presume, were harmonics, on a couple of notes making the concertina sound much more pleasant. I guess that tone control was probably the main function of baffles and volume reduction, probably, an unwanted side effect - after all who would want to reduce the volume in an age where there was no other practical way of increasing volume in such places as theatres chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apprenticeOF Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 In the article I noted regarding baffles, the author (Robert Gaskins) used goatskin for baffles. He referenced a relatively high cost supplier, using bookbinders quality. I have found that with a bit of patience, and a small risk, lower quality hides can be had off eBay much cheaper. Some of the hides may have some defects, but that's not a big problem for concertina work where most of the requirement are for strips. The thickness of the original baffles are consistant with what I use for bellows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelly0312 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 " PS; I took the fine Gauze filter out of one of my concertinas, and it was really only there to keep small insects from exploring the internals, and was amazed at the increase in power . This shows that when you rob a bank you need to shout very loudly through the stocking that is masking your face " I am soooo glad I found this group; I pick up some of the most esoteric tidbits that I would never probable happened upon on my own.....(and not just about concertinas!!) Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Stout Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) My 1851 Wheatstone tutor (brass reeds) came to me with the original spruce baffles. My somewhat earlier nickel silver reeded baritone had lost its baffles. When Wim Wakker did a restoration of the baritone he fitted it with spruce baffles. I'm quite fond of the resulting tone. The articles on installing baffles in duets to improve the balance between the bass side and the treble were aiming for a different result. The use of a thin fabric probably had more to do with insects and visual aesthetics than sound. Edited January 5, 2012 by Larry Stout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apprenticeOF Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I'm not sure what they did to stiffen the leather baffles. The leather does have a curious, almost cross-hatch, texture on the reverse, perhaps as if it had been through a roller - maybe to compress it? That said, it is still quite pliable, and appears to rely on being glued to the stand offs to retain shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 My 1854 wooden-ended, brass-reeded Wheatstone baritone English had had its original wooden baffles removed when I bought it a few years ago. (presumably so that it could complete with the nearest piano accordion in sessions - vandal!) I managed to get some thin spruce, used to make guitar tops, from a luthier, and Colin Dipper very expertly used it to make a pair of new baffles, which he fitted, to restore it to near its original condition. The original baffles were probably made from Russian pine, so Colin told me. Anyway, it doesn't sound quite as loud as did before, but I don't mind and it looks gorgeous. Chris Chris, do you know what thickness the spruce was? I think I will try it. I've fitted paper ones but I think that's a bit of a compromise. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 My 1851 Wheatstone tutor (brass reeds) came to me with the original spruce baffles. My somewhat earlier nickel silver reeded baritone had lost its baffles. When Wim Wakker did a restoration of the baritone he fitted it with spruce baffles. I'm quite fond of the resulting tone. The articles on installing baffles in duets to improve the balance between the bass side and the treble were aiming for a different result. The use of a thin fabric probably had more to do with insects and visual aesthetics than sound. Larry, same question, do you know what thickness the spruce was? Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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