English or Anglo

[Dirge]

I really regret that I have mentioned a C# Major scale. It was just meant as an example of a not so commonly used scale. If you don't play Giant Steps all day long, you don't need all keys in jazz all the time. It's not that playing keys with more sharps and flats is easier on piano. You still have to get used to them quite a bit. I guess what really was behind this question is probably not tested by anyone here, because nobody felt the need to get the feeling of beeing at home in c#maj.

 

Db. Got a couple of pieces of 20c Russian classical on slow simmer. Any good?

 

This is at least what happened with my piano playing. I guess it is like that on any Instrument. If you played something really often you start feeling at home. And most players don't seem to try playing in something further from the home keys. Of course I may be wrong. This would be up to you.

 

What I don't understand is that you say that english concertina is cheaper than anglo. From what I found they are about the same in the beginner ranges, and this is what matters to a beginning player. After all you can only buy decent instruments if you play them. At least if you do it by yourself. So buying cheaper ones in the beginning to not have as much as an investment is a good idea..

 

Beginner instruments can be limiting and unsatisfying, so it's worth looking at where you are ultimately going. Changing systems is pretty close to changing instruments so it's worth trying to get it right first time. Anglo concertinas were originally designed to make a cheap instrument without regard to other criteria, yet currently they are significantly the most pricey because they are fashionable for ITM, which is currently flavour of the month.

 

The choice is quite simple. Buy a duet for maximum versatility, or pay more for a more easily resold English, or pay a fortune for an Anglo that is harder work than either of the others.

 

To take up duet I spent £1300 on my first instrument and have never regretted it. Learning on a fine instrument is a great incentive as well as a luxury. The price of beginner instruments should not be all you look at. Money spent on vintage concertinas is invested not lost, at least until you get to the stage where you can't imagine life without it. (me, and probably quite a few others here)

[shaunw]

[/quote)PPS Lots of people fail to play Irish music convincingly on Anglos, too. Choosing the more suitable instrument will not automatically confer a sufficient understanding of the music in question, or the skill needed, to do it justice

 

I fully agree with this and that is the point I was trying to make. Some people seem to want to say that some

instruments are more suitable than others, e.g. that only an Anglo can give ITM music the proper bounce and that

this can't be done on an EC or a duet.

 

ITM can be played without concertinas on a wide range of instruments. Any type of concertina can be used to

play ITM and it does not need any added bounce that can only be provided by one sort of concertina.

 

The original question was 'What sort of concertina should I buy in order to be able to play ITM and jazz

standards. Some people seem to have lost sight of this. You can't play all jazz standards on an Anglo

and that is a fact of life.

[shaunw]

In case no one has sent you this yet, here is the key layout of the English concertina which

also shows how the keys fit on the musical stave. The EC has the same range as the violin.

Edited July 2, 2010 by shaunw

[Geoff Wooff]

On the EC playing in the keys of Ab,Eb,Bb,F,C,G,D,A,E should not prove problematic. Last night I tried C# Maj but my choice of keyboard temperament ( 1/5 th. Comma Meantone) threw up some sour intervals and my dog wanted to sing along in her prefered key of A.

 

Whilst I am quite happy to play ITM transposed up or down a key, a more interesting exercise is to change octaves.Playing in a session in unison with the others, then play an octave down, then change to an octave above. If you look at the keyboard chart you can see how doing this will twist your brain one way and then the other.

 

However, I am sure you do not wish to play ITM in C#,F# or B Maj. The EC is versatile, logical and bizare which is a great combination, almost human then.

Geoff.

[Hyp]

Several dealers offer a full-price trade-in program for the Jackie and Rochelle models (English and Anglo respectively). Maybe ask somebody if you could buy both, decide which one you want to play, and trade them both in for a better model of the type you choose. Or find some other way to try one of each for a little bit. I bet Button Box can rent you something if you ask.

 

Just to those who pointed out, that I would be better served buying a better instrument. I just don't have the money to throw around. If I had 1000€ or more to spend wherever I wanted, I'd probably go the refund route Ransom adviced. The thing is, that I don't have the money for even one at the moment (I am saving and it will be soon enough). Also there are no concertinas in where I live that I could try. I know that would be the best thing. I could try everything in very slow motion and I'd probably know if I would be able to get this at normal speed. If anyone here is from germany and owns both tell me. I'd probably manage to come by if it isn't to far.

 

Renting might be an option, but it's probably annoying with customs and everything you rent, costs you money that you can't spend to buy.

 

Hyp

[Stiamh]

Once upon a time Zizi and I departed from Miltown after the Willie Clancy Summer School, twas '85 I think. We were heading back to London and we had plenty of time to catch the Ferry. Says Zizi to me "you know, we had a good week but I was unlucky not to see enough of the old fiddle players, the "Legends". OK says I lets go down through East Clare ,call in on Martin Roachford.

 

Well I could tell you about the feeling that the fairies came out of the walls of Martins kitchen to dance when he played the fiddle... but I won't. We left there on a musical high and, needing refreshment,called in at a local hostelry. Being told there that Vincent Griffin would be 'playing tonight"( another famous fiddler) we ordered a second pint.

 

All this is very well and,of course, Mr.Griffin was great too, but there was also another old fiddler that night who joined the session. Nobody famous I'm sure I hardly remember his name (Anthony...... something) BUT!! He played beautifull music and without one single grace note!!

 

That man played as good as I have ever heard and the point I wish to make is that these days there is too much emphasis on "technique" and not enough on the music. It can be so bad that, I think, some players cannot separate "the tune" from "the decorations".

 

PS; Zizi was, at the time of my story, very much a fiddler.

Geoff.(Alien ?.... possibly).

 

Hello Geoff

 

It was 1985 and the I well remember visiting and being completely entranced by the fiddling of the late Martin Rocheford. Fairies indeed. And you had hoped he would play pipes for us <chortle>. I am eternally indebted to you for taking me there.

 

The name of the kindly old fiddler in the pub was Anthony Collins. There were two unusual tunes he particularly wanted us to have and I or we learned them from him on the spot. Well, so I thought. I jotted down the first bar or two of each, confident that this would be sufficient to jog my razor-sharp memory. (For a couple of decades it was a matter of pride for me not to carry tape recorders or cameras around. Couldn't be bothered with the things. With age dulling the edge of the razor and with the disappearance of so many fine musicians I now wonder whether it wasn't a matter of gross irresponsibility.) I still have (somewhere) the scrap of paper with the jotted bars and the titles: "The streams of Shreebogue" and "Anthony Collins' jig" but alas the rest of the tunes are away with the fairies. So much for pride.

 

Anyway I digress. But I quite agree with you that lift and swing are so much more important than decorations. This is true for all instruments but I think it's easy for Anglo players bedazzled by Messrs. Hill, O Raghaillaigh et al. to fall into the trap of chasing the ornaments before they have the can make the tune sound good without. Particularly since some of these players' ornaments seem highly complex - in the pibroch league almost. If some of them are not perfectly executed they can sound weird, unmusical and distracting. (To my ears of course, Azalin will surely disagree.)

 

Whether any concertina (or button box) is _really_ a good instrument for Irish music is another question... there is a thing that has happened to me half a dozen times in 30 years, which is that I will hear a tune (an Irish tune, of course) played solo, starting in the middle as it were - most often a jig - and just not be able to figure out where the phrases start and where they end - unable to make sense of the tune at all. Most disorienting. Sometimes it's an unfamiliar tune, sometimes it turns out to be one I know. On every occasion bar one the instrument has been a concertina (the other time it was a banjo). Has anyone else (with a reasonable experience of Irish music) had this experience, and if so, with what instruments?

 

Steve

 

PS Yes I was in France but it was strictly a family affair, Grenoble and points south. Now if only my boss would "limoger" me I could come to visit you...

[Geoff Wooff]

Ah Zizi,

your memory is still wonderfull, yes Anthony Collins that was his name and as you so rightly say, a kindly old gentleman.

 

I have experienced "tune confusion" many times when listening to the flute playing of Gerald O'Loughlin, from Liscanor, who Gabi and I learned so much from, playing with him every thursday night for ten years.

 

Well tonight we have to go out to play 'Segars' (cigas) I don't even know how to spell them let alone play them. They are dance tunes from Reunion Island...... Yep another life.

Ah the memories of those old times..... sob sob.

Geoff.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Geoff Wooff

[Azalin]

Anyway I digress. But I quite agree with you that lift and swing are so much more important than decorations. This is true for all instruments but I think it's easy for Anglo players bedazzled by Messrs. Hill, O Raghaillaigh et al. to fall into the trap of chasing the ornaments before they have the can make the tune sound good without. Particularly since some of these players' ornaments seem highly complex - in the pibroch league almost. If some of them are not perfectly executed they can sound weird, unmusical and distracting. (To my ears of course, Azalin will surely disagree.)

 

Ah, no, I totally agree, why would I disagree? But the thing is, you've got to try to play them anyway, even if it means sounding unmusical for a while until you master them, in my opinion. Let's be honnest, if both of us had to wait to play perfect ornaments and have perfect rhythm (you can also say that not having steady rhythm is unmusical and very distracting) to play in public, then we both would not go out much ;-)

 

I'd also say that even when perfectly executed, too much ornaments isn't something I like. That's why my favorite concertina players aren't the most 'popular' ones.

[shaunw]

On the EC playing in the keys of Ab,Eb,Bb,F,C,G,D,A,E should not prove problematic. Last night I tried C# Maj but my choice of keyboard temperament ( 1/5 th. Comma Meantone) threw up some sour intervals and my dog wanted to sing along in her prefered key of A.

 

Whilst I am quite happy to play ITM transposed up or down a key, a more interesting exercise is to change octaves.Playing in a session in unison with the others, then play an octave down, then change to an octave above. If you look at the keyboard chart you can see how doing this will twist your brain one way and then the other.

 

However, I am sure you do not wish to play ITM in C#,F# or B Maj. The EC is versatile, logical and bizare which is a great combination, almost human then.

Geoff.

 

Geoff I don't really understand your post, the EC is a chromatic instrument and if properly tuned can play in all

keys and can play all chords. The EC has the same range as the violin and I have never heard anyone suggest that

the violin can't play in any key you care to mention. In what way is the EC bizarre compared to a violin for example?

A concertina tuned to mean temperament is the same as any other chromatic instrument.

[Geoff Wooff]

On the EC playing in the keys of Ab,Eb,Bb,F,C,G,D,A,E should not prove problematic. Last night I tried C# Maj but my choice of keyboard temperament ( 1/5 th. Comma Meantone) threw up some sour intervals and my dog wanted to sing along in her prefered key of A.

 

Whilst I am quite happy to play ITM transposed up or down a key, a more interesting exercise is to change octaves.Playing in a session in unison with the others, then play an octave down, then change to an octave above. If you look at the keyboard chart you can see how doing this will twist your brain one way and then the other.

 

However, I am sure you do not wish to play ITM in C#,F# or B Maj. The EC is versatile, logical and bizare which is a great combination, almost human then.

Geoff.

 

Geoff I don't really understand your post, the EC is a chromatic instrument and if properly tuned can play in all

keys and can play all chords. The EC has the same range as the violin and I have never heard anyone suggest that

the violin can't play in any key you care to mention. In what way is the EC bizarre compared to a violin for example?

A concertina tuned to mean temperament is the same as any other chromatic instrument.

 

Oh dear me!!

This is going to take a deep breath (after a long night on the Segas).......

 

The Violin is a fretless stringed instrument,its strings can be tuned in many different ways, its player can decide the exact pitch of each note by shifting their "fretting" finger up or down the played string a little. Therefore, a violinist can play in "Equal Temperament" or in any other temperament they so choose.

 

My wife plays the "fiddle" (Violin if you really must), when we play fiddle and pipes (Uilleann pipes) she will tune each of her strings to the corresponding note of my chanter. This is because my pipes are not in modern ochestral temperament and they are 160 years old. She cannot change the open string pitch on the fiddle therefore those strings when played 'open' have to be in tune with the chanter notes.She will then adjust the fingered notes as needs be so that, at least, we agree. I will not describe things like F neutral etc.

When we play Concertina and fiddle she does the same thing, I give her my G.D.A. and E. Why? Read on....

 

 

The concertina is a keyboard instrument that has 'set' or predetermined pitches for each note. These pitches can be made to follow the "Equal tempered" chromatic scale or any one of many of the other "temperaments" that have been devised by musicians to render their instrument more nicely in tune, to their ears.

 

I do hope you are not winding me up here because much of what I will attempt to describe is, I WOULD HOPE, common knowledge.

 

You can get all the information you need by Google-ing 'Temperament'.

 

If you do not know me then let me just say that I am a musical instrument maker, tuning is my job, and No I am not looking for work. I will never be able to complete the orders I already have during my lifetime.

 

So, Equal (or Even) temperament is where an octave is divided into twelve equal intervals (semi- tones). This is the common tuning system of Western Art Music (Classical Music) because it allows composers to write music that can modulate (change key) at will. It is also equal because it is an equal amount out of tune in every key.

 

As a worst case; if you were to tune a "drone" based instrument to Equal Temperament ( a bagpipe or Hurdy Gurdy for instance) many of the resulting harmonies (melody against the fixed drone note) would be harsh. A simple harmony that is very bad in Equal temperament is the Major third.

Now it happens that one of the most convenient harmonies on the EC is the major third. So an EC tuned in "ET" is for me unacceptably grating, as it was for some of the early masters of this instrument. Correct me if I am wrong but I recall that Regondi habitially used two concertinas, one in Equal temperament and the other in something that has been called "Uneven temperament".

 

Paul Groff has made fine studies into the tuning regimes found on old concertinas,I am sure there are detailed explainations by Paul on the web somewhere. I also came across old concertinas tuned in a sweeter way and noticed that all the sharp keys got progressively slightly flatter and vice versa for the flat keys. So, when you get as far sharp as D# I notice that the corresponding Eb was very different, and the same with G# and Ab.

This is the simple way to discover if an EC is tuned Equal or Uneven, just compare the G# and Ab pitches; same = Equal, different= uneven.

 

This Uneven is just a different temperament. 'Temperament' in this sense means 'Compromise'. All these tunings, including Equal are compromises and all compromises have 'reasons' for existing.

 

In my previous post I said that my concertina is tuned in 1/5th Comma Meantone. This is the name of one of the alternative temperaments that would have been devised for use on an Organ or Harpsicord. The more common Meantone temperament is called " 1/4 (or Quarter) Comma Meantone".

 

In 1/4 Comma Meantone the keyboard is tuned with 'perfect' major thirds. It sounds wonderfull for cording on a Concertina but, some of the note pitches are a little far away from Equal temperament for playing with other instruments. I therefore have opted for 1/5th Comma, which is another compromise that is about halfway between 1/4 Comma and Equal temperament.

I find that 1/5th Comma is sweet enough for me whilst being very rarely noticed by other musicians. I have been using this tuning system on my own concertinas for about 30 years.

 

So, the use of a temperament other than Equal does impose certain restrictions with regard to the number of keys that an instrument can be played in, but,because the EC has separate buttons for G# and Ab, and D# and Eb, the maximum key pitch differences can be placed at these two points. This allows the number of nicely tuned keys to be increased by 2(?).

 

Certainly keys as far as 4 flats and 4 sharps are happy. If I wanted to play in the keys of B,F# or C# then maybe I would need a brain transplant as well as another concertina.

 

There are several fine books on the subject of tunings and even some recommended somewhere on concertina.net .

 

If you really want I can give you the "Cents" figures ( + or - related to Equal temperament) that I use but you can find these on the web too.

I reserve the right to have an opinion that the EC is Bizare and have not compared its relative bizarness to any other instrument. Many musicians I have met, and as recently as last night,are very curious about the concertina. The young accordion player last night who wanted to try it, was most perplexed even after my (I hope) logical explaination of the keyboard. I spread out my fingers on each hand

then slid my two hands together so the fingers were interlocked, left/right/left/right. Then slid my hands apart to suggest how the notes are divided between each side, explained how the C scale went up the middle two row, how a C would have a C# next to it or a B has a Bb.

How the next octave up starts on the other side, how the octave after that or before the first starts again on the other side but on a different row........ He is French so he used the Bizare word (or was it bizarre).

 

Take a test; play a simple tune, in your favourite key..... now play it an octave up..... now play it an octave bellow your original octave....... going well? OK. Now take a fast dance tune, a reel or jig, whatever you like, and repeat the test. If you find that easy try changing the key, say from C to Bb and repeat the test. If you find that easy with out bucket loads of practice, then you are a true master of the EC, and I salute you.

 

For an explaination of some of the unusual terms used here try books like "Fundamentals of Musical Accoustics" by A.H.Benade or C.A.Padgam's book of Organ tunings (cannot recall exact title).

 

All this is written to try to be helpfull, not to confuse, in good faith, heart on my sleeve. The running order of the details could have been better but this is just poured out of my head and so comes like a 1950's English school dinner, slop on your plate.

Best wishes,

Geoff.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Geoff Wooff

[Jonathan Taylor]

Several dealers offer a full-price trade-in program for the Jackie and Rochelle models (English and Anglo respectively). Maybe ask somebody if you could buy both, decide which one you want to play, and trade them both in for a better model of the type you choose. Or find some other way to try one of each for a little bit. I bet Button Box can rent you something if you ask.

 

Just to those who pointed out, that I would be better served buying a better instrument. I just don't have the money to throw around. If I had 1000€ or more to spend wherever I wanted, I'd probably go the refund route Ransom adviced. The thing is, that I don't have the money for even one at the moment (I am saving and it will be soon enough). Also there are no concertinas in where I live that I could try. I know that would be the best thing. I could try everything in very slow motion and I'd probably know if I would be able to get this at normal speed. If anyone here is from germany and owns both tell me. I'd probably manage to come by if it isn't to far.

 

Renting might be an option, but it's probably annoying with customs and everything you rent, costs you money that you can't spend to buy.

 

Have a look at these guys: The Music Room, Yorkshire, England. They sell Jackies and Rochelles. If I understand their terms and conditions correctly, perhaps if you send them a big enough deposit, they might agree to send you one of each to try out, and return the one that's not suitable. I tried a Jackie once and they are not bad at all.

 

Where in Germany are you? I can actually see a bit of it from my bedroom window (Schwarzwald), but it's a long way to the other end. I could try and find someone near you who could perhaps help (if the e-mail addresses I have still work...).

 

One guy whom you may wish to contact is Rainer Süssmilch. He is a professional musician who works a lot for theatre, and he plays jazz English concertina, among other things. He is due to work in a production in Basel in September (near to me). I could try to contact him, if you like.

[Jonathan Taylor]

If that was you at The Royal at Dungworth near Sheffield the other year Jonathan I'd say you play Irish music with as much stykle and feeling for the tradition as anyone I've heard. I think there are quite alot of EC players who I'd be proud to sound like ( I play Anglo) , as I've already said I know some fine players who could hold their own. I wish they'd comment on this discussion.

 

I was there in November 2008. I came with Gill and Mike Noppen, and Neil Wayne dropped in with some flyers for new CDs of his which he had just brought out. I also remember joining in with someone playing "from Night till Morn". Not you by any chance?

 

If you still think it was me, I thank you for the compliment.

[Azalin]

If you do not know me then let me just say that I am a musical instrument maker, tuning is my job, and No I am not looking for work. I will never be able to complete the orders I already have during my lifetime.

 

Yes I heard of your what, 50 years+ waiting list? You better eat lot of spinach if you want to complete it, assuming it works on you the same way it works on Popeye ;-)

[shaunw]

Geoff I don't really understand your post, the EC is a chromatic instrument and if properly tuned can play in all

keys and can play all chords. The EC has the same range as the violin and I have never heard anyone suggest that

the violin can't play in any key you care to mention. In what way is the EC bizarre compared to a violin for example?

A concertina tuned to mean temperament is the same as any other chromatic instrument.

 

Oh dear me!!

This is going to take a deep breath (after a long night on the Segas).......

 

Geoff thanks for the reply, I do know all this stuff about different temperaments and tunings. However think about

this. The chromatic xylophone and the piano are generally tuned to modern orchestral pitch and they are chromatic

instruments, mean temperament instruments. I have never heard anyone suggest that the standard piano for example

cannot be used to play jazz, blues or even ITM.

 

Now I understand that some people might might find equal temperament grating, in fact there is an interesting book

called 'How equal temperament ruined music'. However I think it is a bit much to expect the original questioner to

get into such complications. This will just confuse him even more. Most of the EC and duet players players I have

met are happy to play ITM with concertinas tuned to concert pitch in an equal temperament setting.

 

Equal temperament was devised to allow players to modulate from one key to another. This isn't really required

for ITM or folk music although it can be and is used in jazz and who knows maybe at some time in the future

someone will write an ITM tune that modulates from one key to another. Of course he or she will probably be

stoned to death for their trouble.

[Azalin]

Most of the EC and duet players players I have

met are happy to play ITM with concertinas tuned to concert pitch in an equal temperament setting.

 

I am asking out of curiosity, but have you got any sound clips or recording of such players, playing ITM? Maybe they have some Youtube clips? Do you play ITM on english yourself?

[Geoff Wooff]

Geoff thanks for the reply, I do know all this stuff about different temperaments and tunings. However think about

this. The chromatic xylophone and the piano are generally tuned to modern orchestral pitch and they are chromatic

instruments, mean temperament instruments. I have never heard anyone suggest that the standard piano for example

cannot be used to play jazz, blues or even ITM.

 

Now I understand that some people might might find equal temperament grating, in fact there is an interesting book

called 'How equal temperament ruined music'. However I think it is a bit much to expect the original questioner to

get into such complications. This will just confuse him even more. Most of the EC and duet players players I have

met are happy to play ITM with concertinas tuned to concert pitch in an equal temperament setting.

 

Equal temperament was devised to allow players to modulate from one key to another. This isn't really required

for ITM or folk music although it can be and is used in jazz and who knows maybe at some time in the future

someone will write an ITM tune that modulates from one key to another. Of course he or she will probably be

stoned to death for their trouble.

 

Shaunw,

 

Firstly yes, I agree that the original questioner might not want to be confused by all this "stuff", and although it was off topic, my last post was a reply to you and anyone else who found my tuning problems in the key of C# Major to be baffling.

 

You mention something called 'Mean temperament' and suggest that that was what I was talking about. What I wrote was 'Meantone' which is so named because it is a tuning system compromise that is half between having perfect major fifths and perfect minor thirds, thus so named Mean (on a middle line between something).

There is nowhere that I suggested the Piano could not be used to play any type of music you so desire but it does have a system within its string tunings that soften the harshness of some Equal tempered intervals. But I forgot, you know all this stuff.

 

Just because most people are happy with something, like Equal Temperament for instance, does not require us all to follow along blindly.

 

If a person plays a single note melody line as on a Clarinet or Flute or Concertina and they have been brought up with and only ever heard music played in Equal Temperament then yes they may be totally content. If and when, however, a concertina player starts to add chords to their melody line they will either accept the way their instrument sounds or avoid certain intervals in their chords. The reason why some chord intervals on a concertina sound so harsh is because the "free" reed gives a very pure note with little confusion in its wave form and two very clean pure notes that are not harmonically in nice alignment will not meld to produce a new sound - The Chord.

 

There are many examples of people (and instruments) that are not tuned to ET. In the squeeze-box family we have the Cajun Accordion for instance, not tuned in ET, ah but that is a genre specific instrument, unlike a Concertina which might be used to play any type of music.Many accordions have two or more reeds for each note and often these extra reeds are 'off tuned' to create what?, a tremolo effect, more noise maybe or is it to soften the chord harmonies of Equal Temper?

OK, take the case of.. the Guitar; here we have an instrument with a fretted neck that is set to produce ET notes. Now some people only go as far as to tune the strings "about right", or take their Guitar back to the shop when their teacher tells them it has gone out of tune.

There are other guitarists who are very particular. I recall listening to a certain singer guitarist who would re-tune after every song, change the pitch of some strings and micro adjust things, try all the chords needed for the up coming song. This process could take two or three minutes and this was done on stage, the audience waited patiently because the end result was beautifull. This singer was compromising the tuning of the guitar so that the harmonies would be best and each new song might mean a change of 'Mode'. Now, Modes, thats another subject altogether and I will not start on that, but I forgot... you know all that stuff.

 

So, to finnish... these other methods of setting out musical scales on Keyboard instruments do constrict the player to play in five or six different keys but on the English Concertina, because of the doubling of the G#/Ab and D#/Eb buttons it is possible to use one of the sweeter temperaments with a greater range of key signiture possibilities.

When I play my Uilleann pipes I can adjust each chanter note for tone and pitch (some notes are more amenable to this than others)by ear, on the fly, so that they blend and harmonise with the drones. The scale and tuning can be very perfect (and sometimes very inperfect)so that the emotion created by some Modes is very apparent. On a good day I can produce a chord containing the notes D,E,F# and A, thus with intervals of Perfect second, perfect third and perfect fifth. Now try that on your concertina, play and hold D-E-F#-A the notes next to each other, not octaves apart. With a set of perfect intervals this chord will lock enough of the harmonics and high upper partials to produce a stunning tension and no discord. In Equal temperament you could only use such a chord to clear the room.

 

I make Uilleann pipes. I spend a very long time creating the "Voice" of each note, placing it as best I can in the scale, by ear. There are two results from this finnicky fussy attitude;1. The waiting list is about 25 years if a person wants one of my instruments, and 2. I do not like, "sort of in tune" playing/instruments.

 

With best regards,

Geoff.

 

PS; Shaunw, if you would like to see some more ideas on alternative tunings for Concertinas then have a look at a thread called "Just Intonation Suggestions". This is in the General discussions forum and dates from around 2005. That thread will also point you back to other intersting threads. G.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Geoff Wooff

[Geoff Wooff]

If you do not know me then let me just say that I am a musical instrument maker, tuning is my job, and No I am not looking for work. I will never be able to complete the orders I already have during my lifetime.

 

Yes I heard of your what, 50 years+ waiting list? You better eat lot of spinach if you want to complete it, assuming it works on you the same way it works on Popeye ;-)

 

Azalin,

 

Spinach works on me in the same way it works on other humans- which might finnish the point about Aliens and God. But we are off topic,oppps!

Geoff.

[Stiamh]

Geoff, do you tune button boxes? I toyed with the idea of 1/4 meantone for a C#/D rig but after corresponding with Paul Groff on the subject decided it was a step too far into the unknown. But 1/5 comma meantone might work better...

 

OTOH one of the advantages of having a 2- or 3-voice button box that is not totally dry-tuned is that even a very light tremolo takes most of the harshness out of major thirds. On tina there is no escape... except uneven temperament.