Same Old Question,i'm Sure

[Tomfang]

I am looking at a Trinity College, a Hohner or a Stagi 20 button anglo. Is there a big difference in any of these? I see that most people who start out with a 20 button want a 30 before long. Would I be better off getting that mystery brand 30 button on e-bay for $229.00?

[Alan Day]

Hallo Tom or is it Fang?

I always would suggest that you buy a cheap but playable instrument to start.There is a lot to learn on a twenty button concertina.If you enjoy the instrument then save and buy something which you will be happy with for years to come.If you hate the cheap instrument it has not cost you a lot of money to get rid of it.

Good luck and welcome to a great site and some lovely people.

Al

[banjoguy]

Would I be better off getting that mystery brand 30 button on e-bay for $229.00?

NO WAY MAN!!!

 

I just picked up one of those 30 button Chinese concertinas on eBay (the same black one that is offered through Lark in the Morning) and compared to my 20 button Stagi, it's a piece of junk.

It looks cool and yes it has 30 buttons, but the sound is terrible. It's very loud and sounds like I'm playing in a tin can.

The buttons are really small and hard to find sometimes.

The only good thing I've found is the buttons don't stick like they do on the Stagi. But I'd rather live with 20 sticky buttons than playing a tin can.

 

Go for a Stagi if this is your first one. It will last you much longer and they sound really nice. The B1 that I have plays really easy and is really mellow. Not too quiet either. For a student instrument the Stagi B1 is really worth every penny.

 

With 20 buttons you can play a TON of songs. The music store by me only has books for the 20 button anyway. I figure by the time you're ready for a 30 button, you'll be ready to spend some good $$$ and get something nice like a Tedrow.

 

Till then, I think my 30 button will make a mighty fine pump for a inflatable raft or air mattress....

 

peace,

 

Sean Kelly

Edited May 27, 2004 by kc7wny

[Alan Day]

Sean you have mentioned your sticking buttons before,if it just friction between the buttons and the wood carefully apply some silicone oil onto the wood where the friction is occuring.Most car accessorie shops will sell it as anti squeek or as silicone lubricant.You need very little as you will not want it on the button ends or your fingers will slip off.If in aerosol form spray a little into the lid and use that.It is Ok for mechanisms but I would not recommend it on a vintage concertina as it will collect dust but it would solve your problem.

Al

[JimLucas]

Sean you have mentioned your sticking buttons before,...

For a different perspective on sticking buttons, I know that what I've experienced on "cheap" concertinas -- Stagis and others -- is that the buttons can be pushed down into the holes, which allows the top of the button to catch on the inside wall of the hole.

 

But it's not necessary to push the buttons so far down. Stop pressing when your fingertip and the top of the button are still slightly (1 mm?) above the surface of the end. The pads will still be adequately lifted, and the notes will sound, but in addition to having fewer stuck buttons, you should find the lighter touch will allow you greater speed.

[Boney]

what I've experienced on "cheap" concertinas -- Stagis and others -- is that the buttons can be pushed down into the holes, which allows the top of the button to catch on the inside wall of the hole.

Would it be possible to install something under the buttons, to keep them from being pushed down so far? Maybe some of that thick sticky-backed felt that's used on furniture legs to keep them from scratching up the floor?

 

I suspect the quality control on those Chinese 30-button anglos is spotty. Mine sounds almost exactly like a Stagi. I've heard Hohners with that "tin can" sound, though.

[JimLucas]

Would it be possible to install something under the buttons, to keep them from being pushed down so far?

Probably, but wouldn't it be preferable to learn not to push too hard?

[Ken_Coles]

It may or may not be relevant here, but Geo Salley's article on sticking Stagi buttons may be useful. [Argh, I haven't linked it from the Repair page. Add to to-do list.]

 

Find it here.

 

By the way, we are getting so many new members asking about the cheapo Chinese concertinas on Ebay (it really is a "frequently asked question"), that if any of you want to collect the answers, or links to the answers in one place, I will be happy to move posting that article or collection, and some links to it, to the head of the line.

 

Ken

[Boney]

Would it be possible to install something under the buttons, to keep them from being pushed down so far?

Probably, but wouldn't it be preferable to learn not to push too hard?

It seems rather awkward and uncomfortable to not press a button "all the way down," and might even introduce additional tension. I've never heard of an instrument being designed that way on purpose. I think one can learn not to press too hard without such a severe penalty for the occasional transgression.

[JimLucas]

It seems rather awkward and uncomfortable to not press a button "all the way down," and might even introduce additional tension.

To stop pushing your finger before it's stopped should be a result of relaxation, not tension. If you're getting "additional tension", then I'd say you're doing something wrong. I wonder if it isn't the idea that you find "awkward and uncomfortable", rather than the physical action.

 

I've never heard of an instrument being designed that way on purpose.

I didn't say the concertina was designed to require stopping the fingers before full travel, only that it works. I believe a "light touch" is espoused by all the good players -- of flute, fiddle, and piano, as well as concertina -- because the extra tension involved in exerting drive-it-home pressure then has to be overcome when you pull away, and that will slow you down. The general rule is to use the minimum pressure needed to accomplish the purpose. It just happens that on a concertina (or accordion), that can be less than "full travel", because beyond a certain point, lifting the pad further has no effect on the sound. Because it's possible, these instruments have a built-in margin of error. (Such a margin doesn't exist in closing a hole.)

 

I think one can learn not to press too hard without such a severe penalty for the occasional transgression. 

If by "severe penalty" you mean excess tension, then I maintain there is no such penalty. If you mean the sticking buttons, that's a consequence of poor engineering and construction. On Wheatstone, etc. concertinas it's not possible to drive the top of the button below the surface of the end. Even so, I rarely press a button until it "strikes bottom", especially when playing fast passages. It slows me down, and takes extra effort.

[Boney]

If you mean the sticking buttons, that's a consequence of poor engineering and construction.  On Wheatstone, etc. concertinas it's not possible to drive the top of the button below the surface of the end.

Exactly my point...I suggested it might be easily fixed, and you seemed to suggest that leaving it that way might be beneficial in learning not to press too hard. But no decent concertina makers seemed to think that was a good idea! If the concertina doesn't work as a well-made instrument should, and if it's easy to fix, fix it. Even if you generally don't press too hard, one little mistake causing a key to stick is too severe a penalty.

 

As far as extra tension is concerned, I was thinking more of holding a longer note...hovering it instead of pressing it all the way down is certainly more awkward for me. Of course, my poor concertina has pretty stiff springs, that might be part of the reason why. The additional tension is in keeping your finger motionless, instead of letting the whole of your hand "rest" at the fully down position. I'm not suggesting that "mashing" the buttons down reduces tension, just that trying to purposely hover them just above going all the way down, for a beginner like me at least, leads to tense, indecisive playing.

 

Certainly giving a little "flick" and not pressing the button all the way down can allow one to play faster, but on a decent concertina if you flick a little too hard and the button goes all the way down, there's no problem. Being FORCED to not press all the way down OR ELSE adds tension.

[JimLucas]

Exactly my point...I suggested it might be easily fixed, and you seemed to suggest that leaving it that way might be beneficial in learning not to press too hard.

Sorry for any misunderstanding from our differing emphases. Your suggested mechanical fix is reasonable and a good idea. I wasn't trying to suggest that an instrument's faults should be considered beneficial , even in learning not to press too hard, but that if one can learn not to press too hard, one might not need to make the mechanical fix. (Some people find such mechanical tinkering easy; others don't.)

 

As far as extra tension is concerned, I was thinking more of holding a longer note...hovering it instead of pressing it all the way down is certainly more awkward for me.

What's interesting to me is that I've developed that habit without consciously thinking about it. It's not "hovering"; it's still pressing. it's just not pressing as hard. It's pressing against the spring, rather than pressing so hard that the spring is overwhelmed and you find yourself pressing against a block of wood, instead.

 

The additional tension is in keeping your finger motionless, instead of letting the whole of your hand "rest" at the fully down position.  I'm not suggesting that "mashing" the buttons down reduces tension, just that trying to purposely hover them just above going all the way down, for a beginner like me at least, leads to tense, indecisive playing.

Right. The "fully down" position isn't really resting, nor is it less pressure, but it is less precision, and until it becomes second nature, that can be difficult to stabilize. and require extra concentration. Concentration makes many people tense.

Being FORCED to not press all the way down OR ELSE adds tension.

I still suspect the "tension" is really more "attention", a mental tension, not a muscular one.

 

At your stage I wouldn't say that you should put too much effort into trying that while playing a tune. But for long-term benefit I might suggest that you occasionally practice slowly depressing a button until it's not quite all the way down, then trying to hold it there for a while and at the same time relax as much as possible. As with practising scales, the practice can be annoying, but the end result can be well worth the aggravation.

[Robert Booth]

After pulling my Stagi apart a bunch of times I have found that the reason that MY Stagi's buttons stick is that they slide up and down the lever, because they are not held on tightly enough by the rubber bushings. They end up moving away from the optimum position and project out of their holes like a rednecks teeth. The article that Ken has resurrected walks you through a fix for that condition.

And no, it doesn't involve braces.

I suppose that there other reasons for the problem, but that's the one that has been talked about here the most often.

Sticky buttons aside, it is a sweet sounding and responsive instrument.

[david dufficy]

I hope you all are not tired of the "what to buy" question so here goes. Has anyone got an idea of how to rank the various cheap concertinas available on ebay or the various music stores? I would to start on a better instrument but money is an object at this point. I will probably be bidding on some of the interesting sounding instruments online, but would love more advice. Thanks again

Dave

[btice]

I am in the same situation. I purchased a cheaper concertina which did two things: it affirmed my interest in the instrument; and it made clear the fact that I want a better instrument. I hope to learn a little while saving up for a really decent instrument. This same thing happened when I bought my first banjo almost 30 years ago. I bought a lesser model and within a year bought a really good one. I am in the process of saving up for a "good" concertina. So, maybe it doesn't matter which of the cheaper models you buy, Dave. Hopefully it will last long enough for you to save for a better one that will fire up your playing. I hope mine does.

 

Ben

[JimLucas]

Has anyone got an idea of how to rank the various cheap concertinas available on ebay or the various music stores?

Yep, I think "rank" is the right word.

If you're looking at something in particular, search here for past comments on the maker name and model designation and see what you come up with. A new instrument with no make or model? Then I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot new EU member.

 

The first thing you need to decide is which system. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then you'd better not buy anything until you do.

 

I don't think there's anything cheap on eBay that you can't get for an equally good price from a dealer who will make sure that it's in playable shape when you get it, and give you a warranty. Some of the eBay "Buy It Now" dealers don't even seem to know which notes are supposed to be where. And if it's a model not carried by The Button Box, Concertina Connection, Bob Tedrow, House of Musical Traditions, The Music Room, or the like, then there's probably a good reason. Shop around, though. At least one "established dealer" (not among those I've just mentioned) is noted for prices substantially above "the norm".

 

Some of the Chinese concertinas have buttons displaced from their standard positions, or notes in the wrong place. I've heard of the latter even with Stagis. Get one of those from an eBay seller -- even one who does a lot of business -- and he may have no obligation to fix it, even if he can understand your complaint. A place like The Button Box checks all their instruments and if there's one with a problem, they will either fix it or replace it before they ship it to anyone.

 

I could say more, but it would only be to emphasize the above, so I won't.

[Stephen Mills]

If you buy a cheap concertina, you should be prepared to experience some of the following:

(1) inferior tone. As compared to what? As a terrific wine is wasted on a poor palate, only you can determine what is acceptable. Ebay won’t help you here. I’ve been ok with the tone on mine.

(2) unusual or wrong key placements. Recent postings suggest the Chinese Englishes from Microscope City may be susceptible to this, but it may be otherwise rare. My Chinese Anglo is fine in this regard.

(3) sticky buttons. Look on C.net for some solutions.

(4) troublesome reeds. These can be harder to fix, depending on how they’re mounted.

(5) bellows that are not sufficiently airtight.

 

There are several questions only you can answer, even apart from the system you want and the style of music you want to play. If you are prepared to throw away your modest investment for the introductory experience, then the cheapos can be a good way to go. My cheap starter instruments have had some problems, but have allowed me to learn the systems and produce some music I’m not ashamed for others to hear. This July I expect to buy a nice instrument at Button Box or Groff's music. The early investment I made was not in the instruments, which will be throwaway within a few months to a few years, but in myself.

 

There is probably no one person who has tried more than 1 or 2 of the ebay models, so no one will be able to accurately assess the situation. I personally would stay away from Microscope City. I’ve driven by the address, not a storefront, and the guy is clearly an importer of very many different things that he ships out of his garage. Nothing unethical about this, but you get the point. Perhaps some of the recent Microscope City buyers could comment on their instruments' tonal and playing qualities.

 

My Anglo was from JLDyer. Even with some problems, I’ve been happy with the transaction. He has only English for sale currently, and 1 20 button Anglo I personally find hideously ugly. His 30 buttons sell for about $225. I knew myself well enough to know that I would not be happy without accidentals and more than 2-3 keys, so I went for a 30 button (Anglo). Keys and accidentals aside, a 20 button will not allow you to develop many alternate fingerings, but this is not necessarily a bad thing at first.

 

If you go for a $80 - $125 concertina, I would expect that you would be dissatisfied quickly, perhaps immediately. Whether you get sufficient compensation in experience and enjoyment out of it depends on both luck and your own personal factors. Good luck.

[Steven]

If you want to try something out before deciding what to buy, why not rent a concertina from the Button Box? You don't have to be local to them to rent from them (they ship), and you'll get to play something decent without paying as much as purchasing it.

 

If you're not lucky enough to be able to borrow a concertina from a friend, this is the way I would suggest going.

 

Steven