Tortoise End Wheatstone Aeola 56 button

[johnneenah]

I'm going to sell my Aeola serial no. 35692. I purchased it in 1982 from Lark in the Morning. It's in very good condition, all reeds and buttons working fine. There is minor wear visible, most on the right thumb leather. The ends are all in excellent condition. In all these years I've played it just a few times each year. I've got other instuments that I tend to play more often (banjo, guitar, piano). I don't know if the case I have is the original one for this concertina, but it is a Wheatstone case - it show more wear than the concertina. I don't really have a solid idea of what this concertina is worth - I'm thinking of selling it on ebay, but I've only sold non-instrument types of things on ebay so I'm not really certain of what is the best way to sell it. I'm including some photos and one with today's paper in it as it seems like there are a lot of scams out there. Could someone give me some idea of what this concertina would be worth and your opinions on the best way to sell it? I just found this forum yesterday so I haven't had time to go through all of the great information here.

[KerryFrank]

I'm going to sell my Aeola serial no. 35692. I purchased it in 1982 from Lark in the Morning. It's in very good condition, all reeds and buttons working fine. There is minor wear visible, most on the right thumb leather. The ends are all in excellent condition. In all these years I've played it just a few times each year. I've got other instuments that I tend to play more often (banjo, guitar, piano). I don't know if the case I have is the original one for this concertina, but it is a Wheatstone case - it show more wear than the concertina. I don't really have a solid idea of what this concertina is worth - I'm thinking of selling it on ebay, but I've only sold non-instrument types of things on ebay so I'm not really certain of what is the best way to sell it. I'm including some photos and one with today's paper in it as it seems like there are a lot of scams out there. Could someone give me some idea of what this concertina would be worth and your opinions on the best way to sell it? I just found this forum yesterday so I haven't had time to go through all of the great information here.

 

Welcome to the family John! Our members are qualified in many fields, professional musicians, repairmen, manufacturers and retailers of concertinas and even a few concertina historians. Many have experience in selling on eBay and can steer you clear of the pitfalls there. (BEAUTIFUL instrument, BTW!) I hope your stay here will be long and very enjoyable! KerryF

[Chris Drinkwater]

Your concertina would appear to be a late model 5E, 56 key tenor treble, dating from 1950 and finished with tortoiseshell ends. See Wheatstone ledger page entry below for the serial number, 35692, right at the top of the page. The case could well be the original. Its value could be upwards of £3000 or $4500 in good condition.

 

Chris

[Greg Jowaisas]

Hi Chris,

I've attempted to attach a 1947 price list from concertina.com I'm not sure how you determined a 5e model was a tenor treble?

 

Greg

 

 

[Chris Drinkwater]

Hi Chris,

I've attempted to attach a 1947 price list from concertina.com I'm not sure how you determined a 5e model was a tenor treble?

 

Greg

 

 

 

HI Greg

I know it doesn't specifically state in the 1947 price list that a model 5e is a tenor treble. I am guessing that a model 5e isn't a 56 key extended-treble, as there would be little demand for one. (all them dog whistle notes!) However, in the 1947 pricelist, to the right of the picture of an Aeola model 5e, it says the following, suggesting that tenor-trebles can also be supplied, inferring that the model 5e isn't one! It's a shame Wheatstones changed all their model designations from before WW2, sometimes making it harder to make comparisons with later models and descriptions in their more recent pricelists.

 

Chris

[Simon H]

I'm pretty sure this has been covered before but sales of goods in Tortoiseshell come under CITES provisions particularly where overseas export is concerned. Ebay have strict policies on the sale off such items. There are simple tests that can be done to check whether the material is real tortoiseshell or man-made - in an inconspicuous area of the material, apply a hot needle. Tortoiseshell smells like burning hair. Man-made smells like burning plastic or kerosene.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortoiseshell_material

[Greg Jowaisas]

Hi Chris,

I've attempted to attach a 1947 price list from concertina.com I'm not sure how you determined a 5e model was a tenor treble?

 

Greg

 

 

 

HI Greg

I know it doesn't specifically state in the 1947 price list that a model 5e is a tenor treble. I am guessing that a model 5e isn't a 56 key extended-treble, as there would be little demand for one. (all them dog whistle notes!) However, in the 1947 pricelist, to the right of the picture of an Aeola model 5e, it says the following, suggesting that tenor-trebles can also be supplied, inferring that the model 5e isn't one! It's a shame Wheatstones changed all their model designations from before WW2, sometimes making it harder to make comparisons with later models and descriptions in their more recent pricelists.

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

Hopefully the seller will help us clarify what range his 5e is in.

 

My reasoning that it is an extended is based on: In the price guide the box above and to the left of the option box you mentioned has the 5e model under "trebles". The ledger page has a 48b 6e with a "TT" designation but no "TT" next to the 5e.

 

As evidenced by the ledgers and appearance on ebay there were quite a few extended trebles built when octave playing was more in vogue. Tenor trebles are uncommon.

 

I agree with you that the change in model designations can be confusing.

 

I will email the seller and seek clarification. Regardless of the outcome he has a beautiful and desirable instrument.

 

Greg

[conzertino]

With a bit of practise it is possible to tell an extended-treble from a tenor-treble on the pictures! First of all is a tenor-treble considerably bigger ( which can be spotted ), secondly can you tell by the position of the lowest keys towards the finger-rest.

 

This is definitely an extended treble! Extended trebles were regarded as the true virtuoso-instruments, hence there are many top concertinas in this range, which is not very useful for folky-players these days.

 

If you listen to Tommy Elliot play his extended box, you know why he needed it....

 

[JimLucas]

Hopefully the seller will help us clarify what range his 5e is in.

...

I will email the seller and seek clarification. Regardless of the outcome he has a beautiful and desirable instrument.

That's the right way to do it, but I'm pretty sure you'll find that it's an extended treble.

 

 

My reasoning that it is an extended is based on: In the price guide the box above and to the left of the option box you mentioned has the 5e model under "trebles". The ledger page has a 48b 6e with a "TT" designation but no "TT" next to the 5e.

I have a bit more than the ledger page to go on. I have a Wheatstone price list from April 1955, and catalog pages describing the different English, anglo, and duet models. To the best of my knowledge, once the model designations were changed from ranges of 2-digit numbers to simple numbers followed by "E", "A", "D", or "T" (for English, anglo, Duet, and Triumph), these codes didn't change. According to the catalog pages,

• 0E is a 36 key treble (missing the top octave of the standard 48 key treble)
  
• 1E through 3E are various grades of 6-sided 48 key trebles
  
• 4E is a 48 key treble Aeola
  
• 5E is a 56 key (extended) "treble"
  
• 6E is a 48 key "tenor treble" (as noted by Greg in the ledger entry)
  
• and 7E is a 56 key tenor treble, but 6E and 7E are not Aeolas
  
• 8E, 9E, and 10E are 48, 56, and 64 key tenor treble Aeolas
  
• 11E and 12E are 56 and 64 key "baritone treble" Aeolas
  
• 13E is a 48 key hexagonal "baritone", while
  
• 14E and 15E are 48 and 56 key baritone Aeolas.

If copies of these catalog pages aren't already available on concertina.com, I'll scan them and make them available, though as things stand right now, I might not get to it before May.

[johnneenah]

Hi Everybody,

I've discovered through Greg Jowaisas that my concertina is indeed an extended treble. That's interesting - I never knew what it was exactly - just played and enjoyed it. I'll try to sell it here on c.net for a bit - I think I've got an idea of what I'd like to get for it now and you're welcome to email me with what you think is a fair offer. If the offers are on the low side I guess I'd try to sell it on eBay after a bit.

Thanks to everbody for their help identifying the exact model.

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Whoops, a bit like my playing, pressed the wrong button at the wrong time.

Geoff

Edited March 14, 2010 by Geoffrey Crabb

[Geoffrey Crabb]

For quick visual determination from photographs, on Treble and Tenor English concertinas/aeolas, the C (mid C) & C# on the left side and the D & D# on the right side are positioned on an imaginary line drawn between the centre fixing screw of the thumb strap and the centre fixing screw of the finger plate.

From this,

a 56 Treble has an additional row above the normal 48 Treble.

a 56 Tenor Treble has an additional row below the normal 48 Treble.

a 64 Tenor Treble has an additional row above and below the normal 48 Treble

 

a 48 Tenor has an extra row below the normal 48 Treble whilst the

top row of the normal 48 Treble is ommitted.

 

Geoff

Edited March 14, 2010 by Geoffrey Crabb

[Greg Jowaisas]

The seller has confirmed that the instrument is an extended treble with "G" as the lowest RH note .

 

Greg

 

PS. Thanks to Jim Lucas for the 1955 catalog information. That would be great if concertina.com could include it in their archives. In the meantime I'm going to make a copy of Jim's information for future reference.

 

And thanks to Geoff Crabb for the concise visual clues. I'll copy those as well.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Greg Jowaisas

[Leonard]

For quick visual determination from photographs, on Treble and Tenor English concertinas/aeolas, the C (mid C) & C# on the left side and the D & D# on the right side are positioned on an imaginary line drawn between the centre fixing screw of the thumb strap and the centre fixing screw of the finger plate.

From this,

a 56 Treble has an additional row above the normal 48 Treble.

a 56 Tenor Treble has an additional row below the normal 48 Treble.

a 64 Tenor Treble has an additional row above and below the normal 48 Treble

 

a 48 Tenor has an extra row below the normal 48 Treble whilst the

top row of the normal 48 Treble is ommitted.

 

Geoff

 

This is enlightening for me:

 

compared to a treble a tenor is a fifth lower not by tuning every reed a fifth lower, but adding a row at the bottom side of the keyboard. So with a tenor (or TT), middle C and C# are in line with the centre of the left hand thumb strab, like a treble.

 

Am I right, that compared to a treble a baritone is an octave lower, because the corresponding buttons are tuned an octave lower? So on a baritone it's "C below middle C", that is in line with the centre of the left hand thumb strab?

 

And how about a baritone-treble: is that a treble (with "middle C" in line with the left hand thumb strab) extended down with two extra rows? Or is it a baritone (with "C below middle C" in line with the left hand thumb strab) extended up with two rows?

 

Leonard.

[JimLucas]

For quick visual determination from photographs, on Treble and Tenor English concertinas/aeolas, the C (mid C) & C# on the left side and the D & D# on the right side are positioned on an imaginary line drawn between the centre fixing screw of the thumb strap and the centre fixing screw of the finger plate.

From this,

a 56 Treble has an additional row above the normal 48 Treble.

a 56 Tenor Treble has an additional row below the normal 48 Treble.

a 64 Tenor Treble has an additional row above and below the normal 48 Treble

 

a 48 Tenor has an extra row below the normal 48 Treble whilst the

top row of the normal 48 Treble is ommitted.

Geoffrey, in your experience is that alignment always the case for a 48 tenor (called 48 key tenor treble in my 1950's Wheatstone catalog)? I know someone with a 48 tenor, and I seem to recall that when I played it the notes felt shifted, as if the 48 buttons were all in the same place as on a treble, and not a row off the top and another added at the bottom. I'll see if I can visit him again in the next week or few and double-check that.

 

And how about a baritone-treble: is that a treble (with "middle C" in line with the left hand thumb strab) extended down with two extra rows? Or is it a baritone (with "C below middle C" in line with the left hand thumb strab) extended up with two rows?

Not on mine, no.

I have a 64-button tenor-treble and a 64-button baritone-treble (both Æolas), and it's the relationship of the spatial array of the buttons to the thumbstrap and finger plate which is the same, not the placement of the individual notes. I.e., in the location of middle C on the TT is found the F below that C on the BT.

 

On the other hand, my 56 button bass -- not a bass-baritone, but 2 octaves lower than a treble -- has as its lowest note a cello C (2 octaves below middle C), and that note is placed in the "middle C" position as described by Geoffrey. So its button array is like the treble array with one row removed from the bottom and two rows added to the top.

[Chris Drinkwater]

Just goes to show that assumptions can be wrong re: TT. And thanks again to Jim for clarification from the 1955 pricelist and Geoff Crabb for his information too. Attached is a copy of the details for the Aeola range from the 1920 Wheatstone pricelist showing the various models and their compass or note range. I can confirm that a baritone has the same fingering as a treble; it's just tuned an octave lower. I know that because I own one.

 

Chris

[Leonard]

Looking at this 1920 pricelist, what's the difference between:

 

Model 14: 56 keys Baritone-Treble, 4 octaves from G on the first/bottom line of the bass stave and

 

model 20a: 56 keys Baritone, 4 octaves from G on the first/bottom line of the bass stave.

 

Leonard

[JimLucas]

Looking at this 1920 pricelist, what's the difference between:

 

Model 14: 56 keys Baritone-Treble, 4 octaves from G on the first/bottom line of the bass stave and

 

model 20a: 56 keys Baritone, 4 octaves from G on the first/bottom line of the bass stave.

On the baritone-treble, middle C is in the left hand.

On the (just plain) baritone, middle C is in the right hand.

In fact, all notes are found in opposite hands on the two different kinds of "baritone".

 

How? Why?

• The array of notes on the standard baritone is "identical" to that on the treble, except that the note for each button sounds an octave lower than on the treble. This means that the middle C on the baritone will be in the position of the high C on the treble, and since one consequence of the English layout is that successive octaves of the same note are on opposite sides of the instrument, the middle C of the baritone will be in the opposite hand to where it is on the treble
  
• But baritone-treble means treble continuing into the baritone range (and tenor-treble means treble continuing into the tenor range). I.e., the middle C -- and every other note of the treble range -- is located just where it would be on a treble, in terms of which end of the instrument and which side of the center line. The only shift in location is a shift toward the higher end of the instrument, so that the array of buttons remains in the same place relative to the thumb strap and finger plate.