Chords on Concertinas

[Alan Day]

I think that the main reason for umpah style on the anglo was to provide an off beat for dancing. Listening to and dancing to can sometimes be different and I do not disagree with anything that has been said,but without the offbeat, for English dancing the dancers seem to plod around the dance floor, almost sand dance style. With the off beat there is more of a lift to the music. It is one of the reasons that certain bands are wonderful to listen to ,but difficult to dance to.

Al

[gavdav]

Something that nobody has mentioned as far as I can see is the MECHANICAL logic of certain patterns on the anglo (as on the melodeon) - I am totally rubbish at the umpah style of playing - couldn't do it on the melodeon, struggle with alternating bass on guitar and now feel like I'm doomed sometimes to be naff on the anglo too

Hello Gav. I believe that the evolution of the umpah style on anglos and melodeons was at least partly dictated by the mechanical logic of the instrument. Playing a scale, or your average folk tune, on the simpler kinds of anglo requires frequent changes in bellows direction. The umpah style leaves crucially important gaps in the harmonic accompaniment, and it is into these gaps that the short bellows reversals often fit, so you don't find the chord changing involuntarily with nearly every beat. An anglo with more buttons, and hence more directional alternatives, allows you avoid many of the revesals, and hence use a different accompaniment style. The young melodeon players we were mentioning tend to play as much as possible cross-rowed for the same reason, hence the syncopated or sustained chord patterns they are able to achieve.

 

Of course the umpah (vamping) style is used by pianists and other musicians who do not have bellows to worry about, and it does provide a very bouncy accompaniment for certain kinds of music (including English trad). But it does become limiting if that's all you ever do, and there's nothing to say you're a naff anglo player because you don't use it!

 

Thanks Brian - I know what you mean - I struggled for years with chording on the melodeon in the home key until I found there was a definite pattern of kind of scale ascension that followed the reversals and I sort of chased that pattern round the bass end for G then found which direction it went in for A etc. I just can't play a steady bass end um-pah without murdering the tune on the treble end. I end up playing a mix of octaves and bass notes, but - a long way to go before a happy style evolves!

[PeterT]

 

The kind of stuff that Andy Cutting introduced (see Howard's post again) was not only technically very accomplished, but a necessary corrective to years of lumpen, unimaginative melodeon playing. However, as with many fashions, derivatives of Andy's style have now themselves become such a cliche for many (especially young) players, that they're in danger of becoming a bit of a bore.

 

 

Hi Brian,

 

Going off at a tangent (as is my wont), I wonder how this discussion might have turned out had Andy Cutting persisted with the Maccann Duet, when he dabbled in the late 1980's.

 

Sadly (for we concertina players), he had already been seduced by the melodeon. We are probably destined never to know, but Andy might have made some interesting music with the concertina.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[david_boveri]

for irish music, the idea is that if you don't know how to do chords right, don't. irish music is primarily melodic. the chords cannot hide the melody. there is absolutely no need for "fancy" chords on the anglo in irish, as it would drown out the melody, be overly difficult, and not sound good. best stick to basic inversions of the D and G chords, and a lot of single note drones and double stops. listen to pipe players--this is the only place in irish music where the tradition of chords is strong. copying the chords they do sounds great on the concertina. also listen to players such as micheal o raghallaigh, tim collins, mary mcnamara, and noel hill to get an idea of how to use tasteful chords in irish music.

 

it is important to note that all of these players could add more chords than they do. one time noel hill taught us a polka, and arranged it very nicely, and then when we were all done, he played the tune again with every possible chord he could, just for fun. let me tell you there is a huge difference between how he normally plays, and how many chords he CAN put. i would say in his more heavily chorded arrangements, he puts in at most 5% to 15% of the chords he could do.

 

i know that you would like to do seventh chords and all that, but i think that you should probably hold off on all that. that is not to say don't be dissonant, but rather find your dissidence extant in the tradition. if you listen to pipe players, they'll hit some chords on the regulators that are dissonant, especially hitting D and G against an E. actually, on concertina, this is what i most often prefer in tunes in the key of C when playing a second octave E--i do a G chord rather than a C chord. also, i think that a D drone can work against any note except low E right above it, because that sounds too "7th-y". actually most of what i do with chords involves a low D by itself--on the beat, off the beat, both, or droned--any other fuller G or D chords are added to complete the sound as a variation on the repeat. my perspective is perhaps biased because i learned how to chord primarily from noel hill, but i really do think that simple is the best.

 

i would say for irish music once you can emulate the sounds of piping regulators on the concertina, then try to consider adding fancier chords. one final piece of advice: i believe that chords should be the icing on the cake, and not the cake itslef. imagine a simple cake with a foot of frosting and you can see the possible error in your approach. also, just like icing, your audience should always be left wanting more chords, rather than them thinking you did just enough or too much, in case they'll wish you'd left it out, just like you'd scrape off icing from the cake if there was too much.

Edited February 16, 2010 by david_boveri

[m3838]

i would say for irish music once you can emulate the sounds of piping regulators on the concertina, then try to consider adding fancier chords.

 

 

That's exactly what no one should do.

Pipes are pipes and concertina is concertina.

Those "drones" on concertina sound terrible, long honky "single note "drones" at most unexpected places ruin the rhythm and destroy the accentuation. One must be oblivious to the tune to add those off the shelf "embellishments".

Although I agree that if you don' t know how to use harmony, don't use it, but isn't it obvious? And how Irish music differs from any other in this regard?

Do you have any recording of Noel Hill's playing of that polka?

[david_boveri]

i would say for irish music once you can emulate the sounds of piping regulators on the concertina, then try to consider adding fancier chords.

 

 

That's exactly what no one should do.

Pipes are pipes and concertina is concertina.

Those "drones" on concertina sound terrible, long honky "single note "drones" at most unexpected places ruin the rhythm and destroy the accentuation. One must be oblivious to the tune to add those off the shelf "embellishments".

Although I agree that if you don' t know how to use harmony, don't use it, but isn't it obvious? And how Irish music differs from any other in this regard?

Do you have any recording of Noel Hill's playing of that polka?

 

unfortunately i don't believe i have the recording, as my mindisc died that year, and i lost most my supplementary material. now that i think of it, it may have been a strathspey, but same difference (or he may have done it with both).

 

now for the rest of it. my response was based on the question: how should you do chords in irish music, without being unobtrusive in group playing? so, i responded based on how the tradition has viewed chording. there are other approaches, to be sure, but there is 200 years of precedent for treating chords in irish music in the fashion i recommend. the concertina may not be the pipes, but neither is the flute or the fiddle, yet these players have drawn much of their stylistic choices from the pipe players. any other way to tastefully add chords to irish music will share this in common with the method i propose: it will end up with the player using far less chords than a player of, say, english folk music. this is due not only to the tradition (which is a huge part), but also to the limitations of the instrument in relation to the melodic flow. in short: irish concertina players play their melody on the right and the left, which means you have to hit chords with the same fingers you are playing melody with, and it also means it is all too easy to overpower the melody. in english playing, the melody is for the most part restricted to the right side, meaning that you are a full octave or more above your chorded notes, meaning you can add chords willy nilly and it just sounds great. even the old style players who played in the rows in C and G did not play up an octave like british players, and were restricted to chords that were using the same fingers as their melody fingers.

 

so, although it may sound strange to you, it is not something i just made up, and it is surely the appropriate way to play. now, you may have another idea, and that's fine--but deviating too far from what i outlined will end up in irish players giving you sidelong glances and wondering what you are doing. it doesnt matter if it sounds strange to non-irish-music playing musicians, because that is not what the original poster was asking about. i am all for innovation in chording styles, but i don't think that one should start from scratch, blindly searching in the dark. i think it is a good idea to build on what has been done before, and then depart from this.

 

i have uploaded some examples of my playing, to illustrate exactly what i was talking about. i must apologize--it makes me nervous to record myself for the internet, and so i end up rushing and making all sorts of mistakes. nevertheless, i think it illustrates well how i am recommending to play. how would you suggest i play differently than i do, as far as chords are concerned? as i said before--i'm not going to say it won't leave the listener wanting more chords, as that is partially the point, but there is not much more i could do without obfuscating the melody. also, as an aside, in one track my room mate says something strange, and at the end, i cuss, so be warned. also, on another track, i start a second tune and stop it without finishing.

 

bucks of oranmore. (the abandoned tune at the end is foxhunter's in A. i didn't mean to start it).

wind that shakes the barley.

lilting banshee and port gan ainm. (this one has the strange quote at the beginning and the cuss at the end. also the second tune is all over the place).

mcgettrick's and lad o'beirne's favorite.

kitty lie over and munster buttermilk.

[m3838]

I liked the way you are playing, in general. Of course, it feels wa-ay too fast and not crisp because of that, but it can be due to nervousness. Slow down, man, take a breath, life is too short to rush.

But I must say, I agree with Regondi in his treatment of chords, be it "drone" or short two note something. It must be let go, never let to "honk", be it a tradition of whatever. So it's the wrong tradition then, sort of "grey unwashed' taste. Like those manner of Country singers emulating poor speech of rural folks. Gotta be reasonable. You have super-duper expensive instrument, only very well-to-do educated folks could afford, and you are trying to sound like poor peasants? Gone is gone. Be glad it's gone now, god forbid those times will come back.

Having said all that, those short stacatto intervals, or accomodating single notes make the tune so much richer and interesting, give it a lift and rhythm.

What if you relax, slow down and record these tunes again? It will be a pleasure to listen to.

Look forward to it.

Edited February 16, 2010 by m3838

[michael sam wild]

Thanks folks , these are the answers I was hoping for in my quest.

 

Incidentally I was listening to a BBC Radio 4 programme on Jazz and young British black players. The general impression was that jazz has become seen as a 'conservatoire' thing and appropriated by the trained players and had lost its spontaneity. That niche is now taken by all the genres of Hip Hop and Rap. So playing 'jazz' chords may be another aspect of elitism and overegging if applied to the traditional pudding.

 

Although I'm sure the folk process will lead to a new equilibrium by selection or rejection by players and listeners and dancers.

 

 

Last night we went to a concert at the BoardWalk in Sheffield where the band was Jon Boden (fiddle) Martin Simpson (guitar or banjo) and Andy Cutting (melodeon). Fay Hield was also on with her musicians Sam Sweeney (fiddle and nyckelharpa and Rob Harbron (EC). Roy Bailey aslo sang ( he's Martin's father in law!) There was also a performance by women's morris side Pecseatan Morris with music on melodeon and oboe.

 

I noticed that Andy C used few LHS chords in the group situation, more like partial chords on the melody end. Martin put in some 'interesting' chords but not such as to impeded the fiddle and melodeon tune arrangements .

 

Fay's singing was accompanied by quite spare 'modal' playing for ballads but one song from a Mike Harding collection , Harris' Mill, a parody of The Old Apple Tree had more of a fairground organ feel which is where some of that oompah may have originated . After all steam organs would be the first 'recorded' music a lot of traditional players would have heard ( perforated paper rolls). I suppose that vamp would originate with piano chording, minstrel shows, Salvation Army hymns ( 'Why should the Devil have the best tunes?') etc

 

 

With the morris music I was struck by how much was in a minor mode and wonder whether this is influenced by the melodic tunes on fiddle and tabor that preceded the instruments like Kimbers anglo and the melodeon etc that came in in the 1950s and later on. A sort of Tony Hall, Blowzabella, Cutting, influence that was certainly not common when I started playing melodeon in a 'limited , lumpen , unimaginative and admittedly 'godawful' style for morris in the 70s. . Although the lads leapt about well enough to it!

 

I think the guitarists of the 60s , like Davey Graham, Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, Chris Foster and DADGAD tunings etc did direct music that way as well.

 

 

A lot of Irish 1920s 78 records had a piano vamp often dead irritating to our ears but obviously expected by the buying public. Now it is more accompanied by guitar or bouzouki in a more broken fashion ( which may allude to harp chords on a diatonic harp), unless you get a thrash guitarist with D7 and A7

Edited February 16, 2010 by michael sam wild

[michael sam wild]

The kind of stuff that Andy Cutting introduced (see Howard's post again) was not only technically very accomplished, but a necessary corrective to years of lumpen, unimaginative melodeon playing. However, as with many fashions, derivatives of Andy's style have now themselves become such a cliche for many (especially young) players, that they're in danger of becoming a bit of a bore.

 

 

Hi Brian,

 

Going off at a tangent (as is my wont), I wonder how this discussion might have turned out had Andy Cutting persisted with the Maccann Duet, when he dabbled in the late 1980's.

 

Sadly (for we concertina players), he had already been seduced by the melodeon. We are probably destined never to know, but Andy might have made some interesting music with the concertina.

 

Regards,

Peter.

 

 

Interestingly Jon Boden plays Maccann duet and may surprise us all with the traditional material.

[Azalin]

OK, I just sent Dave an email and begged him to re-record these tunes at HALF the speed he played them the first time. There's no excuse for "notes skipping" and hectic phrasing! Because I know Dave is one of the best player here, so this is totally unacceptable ;-)

[michael sam wild]

Yes a good wrist slapping is in order

 

However I was impressed by your playing Da id and am sure it was nerves, which we all get in front of the public or recording machines.

 

I got the point about the things you were illustrating and appreciate the enthusiasm and hours that have gone into the playing to reach your standard.

 

Anyone who goes public with The Bucks is a good 'un for my money.

Cheers

Mike

[RatFace]

I think that the main reason for umpah style on the anglo was to provide an off beat for dancing...

 

One of the great things about Andy Cutting's playing is that the "dancing" rhythm doesn't (necessarily) come from the bass end - primarily it comes from the right side/bellows. That leaves him free to use the bass end to play harmonies using timing on the bass end that results in a cross-rhythm with the right side. Or the other way round.

 

I don't know if that's done much on the Anglo...

[Azalin]

Yes a good wrist slapping is in order

 

However I was impressed by your playing Da id and am sure it was nerves, which we all get in front of the public or recording machines.

 

I got the point about the things you were illustrating and appreciate the enthusiasm and hours that have gone into the playing to reach your standard.

 

Anyone who goes public with The Bucks is a good 'un for my money.

Cheers

Mike

 

Yeah I was a bit tough with Dave but I know he can handle it It's a very sensitive subject to me because I was very frustrated after a local session on saturday where people seemed to play way too fast, speeding up 50% and ignoring the melody and rhythm for the sake of speed. There was a fiddle teacher and his student, and the student played so fast, with bad rhythm... I was a bit disappointed that the teacher didn't teach her to put emphasis on rhythm and phrasing instead of speed. Also, it's still puzzling me how so many people have been taught by Noel Hill, and yet put more emphasis on ornaments and technique than what should be the basic. I have yet to hear a casual Noel Hill student sit down and play a tune at intermediate speed, solidly, without feeling the music is 'rushed' somehow. I'm not blaming Noel Hill, I just don't understand why this is happening. My theory is that Noel Hill students are mainly attracted by flashy playing, and this is what they'll put emphasis on (the students). Noel certainly plays for them at a steady, intermediate tempo, and he's got the deepest respect for the melody. But maybe his students are focused on other things. I don't know. Anyhow, I know Dave can do it, but I think when it's hard for you to play slow, you gotta take the time and practice to do it.

 

PS: Dave is a far superior concertina player than I am, but my rhythm is very (relatively) steady on whistle, that's why I dare slap his wrist

Edited February 18, 2010 by Azalin

[michael sam wild]

I guessed so!

Anyway we come on here as consenting adults and it's nothing like the micky or pxxs taking you get at the friendly sessions I get to. It's half the fun .

[david_boveri]

well, i'll look into recording them again.

 

i would say that ross schlabach, wally carroll, greg jowaisas, michael eskin, and edel fox (among others) are all students of noel who i know that all emphasize rhythm rather than fancy ornamentation. so guillaume, i think you have an availability bias in your sampling.

 

for many years, noel hill has been trying to get me to emphasize the rhythm/etc. last summer when i saw noel, i played nice, smoothly, calmly, and in time, and he said, "thank god david--i don't know what you did, but i couldn't sit through another year of that." i've pretty much gotten it, but sometimes the wires cross in my head and i lose it all when i think i'm being evaluated. i don't mind playing for people, but when i'm trying to play and worry about a particular aspect of my playing (chords, tone, etc), it all starts to fall apart.

 

i'll try to make some recordings when i worry about the music and not the technical content.

Edited February 19, 2010 by david_boveri

[Azalin]

Hehe Dave, yeah I said "casual" students of Noel Hill, in the sense of amateur/hobbyist... But my example was a bit extreme, on purpose I know you can do it, that's why I'm giving you a good spanking! Anyhow, to a lesser extent, I am guilty of recording online clips way too fast, too.

[Jody Kruskal]

Hi Dave,

 

I gave your recordings a listen too and you are doing some really great stuff, but as has been said by the wrist slappers... too fast for you to play cleanly and also too fast for the listener to appreciate the richness of what you are doing. We can hear the good stuff as well as the problems and I'm sure you can too. When and if you go to record these again, I have a few suggestions.

 

Try playing to a click track on headphones for practice and record what you are doing with the click on a separate track. Dont't have tracks? Get the free recording software called Audacity. That way you can listen to them both together or just your playing sans click. Rather than a metronome click, set up a beat that works for you on a sequencer. These handy drum machines are everywhere as cheap stand alone devices or free software on your computer. Playing to one is quite revealing. They are not hard to figure out and use. Set it to your tempo and then turn the tempo down a few or even a lot. Practicing much slower than you intend to play is a great trick for improvement.

 

The click does not waver, so when you do, if you are recording your practice, you can hear where and how, and go about fixing the problem in your playing. Record yourself as part of your practice. Listen to the recording and record again. Listen after every pass to learn worlds about your playing. Working with your recording environment in a practice session will make you a much better player and less nervous when you go to record something to share. This process has worked well for me. Listening to my playing right after playing it gives me great feedback. It's the naked truth that cannot be denied.

 

When I'm playing, my listening is distorted. I hear what I intend, not what I actually do. By recording and listening as part of my practice, I can then be my own teacher and fix my problems better than any other teacher can.

 

Of course it might be more fun to just learn another tune, but the work you do along the lines I suggest will improve your playing for all the tunes you know and is really fun in it's own way, especially as you notice your playing improving dramatically.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Jody Kruskal

[michael sam wild]

Just a point re the original question.

I've been reading Dan Worrall's great books on the social history of the Anglo.

 

He makes the point that the method of octave playing along the rows was very widespread.

 

As a lifelong mouthorgan player it's what I automatically did when I got an Anglo. You also tend to play a bunch of notes on a mouthorgan at the start 'cos they generally harmonise and add volume.( I was playing for square dances with no amplification in the 1950s)

 

 

If you play octaves you are getting a bit more controlled but the left and right hands do fall into the beginning of chording on LHS and melody on RHS. the chords are a bit like 'Kimber Kords' but get you going.

 

Of course it's a whole new bag of tricks when you start pulling and pushing chords in key of G or D across the rows on a C/G rather than sticking to the home rows but it adds to the endless fascination of this 'toy' ( as someone called it once at a session)

Edited February 21, 2010 by michael sam wild