chiton1

Let me add something about the seriousness of instruments which I think is here discussed in a too symplistic way. First all instruments are different and all have their limitations. I agree some have more possibilities than others, but even the most serious instruments will lack certain capabilities. For instance my favourite instrument (in classical music) the violin (and its counterpart the cello) will not be able to make complex chords (and only double note combinations when possible). The Piano (another very serious instrument) can not hold a note for certain time, no matter how hard you push that pedal your note will fade away. And Misha; lets now consider the great Indian classical music. The instruments used amongst others are the Sitar (reasonably complex), but also the Tabla (simple). But also the bamboo flute which is as simple as your paper and glue plane, but in the hands of Hariprashad Chaurasia it becomes as expressive as whatever cello, violin, piano, bayan or any other ''complex and sophisticated'' instrument. Give me a few few thousand gifted young concertina students, and train them for many hours a day, and that during many years, and you will see concertina virtuosi arise, playing at a standard not seen before and perhaps not thought possible on that little, cute, not too serious instrument of ours.

Of course! Virtuosity has nothing to do with the kind of instrument you play (it could be just two rocks or the most elaborate instrument ever made). It has to do with your complete mastering of it and you musicality and capebility to move people.

In my view a virtuoso is somebody whose technical and musical standards are at a level other players do (can) not reach. They make music that moves people (by their musicality) or baffles them by sheer technical skill, or a combination of both. It does not matter which kind of music they make and which instrument they play. They excel others. The concertina world has perhaps less virtuosos as the classical music scene which is quite understandable when you see how many thousands of young violonists, cellists, flute players, etc. are trained every year in ways that are not imaginable in our little concertina world were one is glad to have followed a few workshops. In my view Simon Thoumire is a virtuoso, playing brilliant music on his instrument (like it or not) that 99.9% of all other English concertina players can not make.

The topic on how to change the sound of your concertina, made me want to put this question forward. The difference in sound between AC's and EC's are in my opinion not due to the fact that Anglo's are played differently, but there is something in the manufacture that sets them apart. Now I am no expert at all (I only play the EC), but I thought that the same reeds were used in both systems and the only difference (at first sight) is that the shape of the reed chambers are quite different. There may be more about it? If anyone has any ideas I would be very interested to hear them. Hermann

I used to play the wooden flute (and whistle) before I started on the concertina. So being used at a D flute with keys (talking of hardware here) I didn't use much, I started playing the concertina mainly in C with only sparse use of the half tones. And although I later got used to playing in many other keys, the key of C has remained for me the most logic and easy to play.

Get real guys, a car is as much (or as little) of luxury here as in the states. Unless you live in the Netherlands were the public transport is well arranged and may lead you to many places (but not all!). Or unless you live in a big city (but that goes for the US too) you will need a car in rural France (or rural Spain, Italy, Slovenia, Portugal, Rumania, Germany etc). Here the nearest shop is 5 km away, nearest (small) town is 25 km. I would be quite isolated without a car. Perhaps distances are greater in the US but what does it matter if you need a car to drive you 30 or 300 kms?!

I am very ecclectic in musical tastes, seeing as my music history has spanned from classical piano training being a fan of a lot of local, national (US) and international indie artists. And I admit (a little blushingly) that I have recently become interested in traditional Irish music -- my boyfriend being American of Irish descent (he's the kind that doesn't really know a lot about or isn't really in touch with his Irish culture/history, but it interests him -- he recently broke into his appropriation of a "jig" at walmart when we passed the music section and there were samples of music you could play when you pressed buttons) -- that sort of thing. But I also admit that my interest in the concertina also stems from thinking it could be a wonderfully cool addition/sound to the little music project my boyfriend and I sometimes dabble with. I don't know if people consider the presence of the concertina in modern music to be an abhorrence , but we like different sounds, and I think if all works out well with my learning, we could integrate it in to his songs which would be interesting. his music page is myspace.com/yespersound but yeah. that was a pretty long answer for "what sort of music do I favor.." lol sorry noob excitement.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the concertina! Hermann

C.Jeffries 50 button concertina with pierced metal end panels, ebonised fittings and tooled leather bellows, engraved 'C.Jeffries Maker 23.Praed St. London W' together with a leather case, retailer's label and a tin containing spare accessories Estimate: £100.00- £200.00 (Lot 357): The listed estimate is pretty funny, so there may be a bargain to be had for someone. Regards John Auctionhouses do put items of which they know there will be interest on auction with very low estimates. This will attract more people all hoping to get that bargain. You will find yourself in fierce competition with all of them and prices will go up way more than when a more realistic estimate was given. Auctionhouse tactics.... but you never know, it doesn't work all the time - you may be lucky.

I just sold a 38 button Jeffries (from a friend to a friend) for 4000 euro (bellows and straps have to be replaced). But it sounded so much nicer than the Crabb it will replace (although not a bad instrument either). I think many concertina players are not used to spend money for their instruments (ah the times when you could buy an Aeola or Jeffries for 20 pounds....). An average new violin will costs you more than a perfect Jeffries. Classical musicians (not only pros) are spending big money on their instruments. If you do not have the money, buy what you can. If you have the money and you love the sound of a Jeffries, buy it. If you prefer a new Suttner or Dipper or whatever, buy those. Demand may have raised the prices of Jeffries concertinas but they are worth every penny for those who love the sound of it.

That's why recording yourself is so important! Because when you are playing you do not perceive the music you are making the same way as when you take some distance and just listen.

I strongly agree. When you record yourself you will be disgusted most of the time. But you will hear all the flaws of your playing, much better than when you listen while playing. Be critical but give yourself time to improve.

I personally don't like the sound of Jeffries, it always makes me scratch my head in disbelief that some people consider these angry honkers to be "musical" instruments, be they worth millions or sold by the 6 pack cartons. That's how far opinions can differ. Oh yes they are beautiful musical instruments - apparently beauty is in the ear of the beholder! A car, just like a concertina or anything else, is bought not for it's monetary worth (unless you are a Hollywood Holehead), but for it's utility. And as far as car is running, it's utility worth is not dropping a cent. A utility worth of $2000 car is questionable, so one has to consider spending more. I consider my Sienna a best buy up to date, regardless of market value. I think the issue here is that people have their priorities set, and that many do not question buying a car for a lot of money (as it is utilitary - and to many it is their castle also), but a concertina is just for fooling around and perhaps considered luxury (and one should not spend too much money on luxury). But you can't bet on it. I wouldn't be surprized if the values will suddently drop next year, when commodities will rise, and priorities change. Nobody anticipated rise in concertina prices vs. drop in, say, guitars or pianos. One can't assess tomorrow using misunderstood experience of yesturday. Look what is happening with houses. One would think people need to live somewhere. You can bet that your car (unless you buy a special vintage car of course) will drop in value until there is no value left at all. A vintage concertina has all the advantages a good violin has too (although prices are much more reasonable). When well cared off they keep on playing. And as vintage concertina's are relatively rare I am sure they will keep their value (if not increase it). I would bet on the concertina anytime. What happened to houses is that people lived in houses too expensive for them, and the banks were giving loans to people who couldn't afford. That is asking for trouble by both the banks and the people. My experience is that nothing in this life is certain, but that normally quality will keep its worth. . Or your car will break and concertina prices go down, and you'll be left without investment and means to go to work. Yea sure... You are 100% correct on this. That's what I'm telling you. $8000 for a good used car mean mechanical guarantees and longevity, vs. speculation about future gains in collecting expencive instruments. There are probably not one and not two investor-collectors, who lost considerable amounts. It's like gambling, spend what you can afford to lose. If you win - good for you, but don't bet on it. I am a salesman and I am always gambling. If I wouldn't gamble I wouldn't earn a dime (and I couldn't buy these vintage concertina's!). In fact you should buy a good car and a good concertina, at least as good as your purse can afford. I started off with a simple brass reed Lachenal EC and no car at all, but at that time my purse was almost empty. While monetarily it is not better than money in the bank, but I agree that having good instrument is benefitial. One has to consider the brief singularity of one's existence. While the most important goal in life is, obviously, making life better for others around you, it doesn't exclude sticking to higher standards and ocasional gifts to oneself. Due to bad banking (giving huge loans to people who can't afford it) your bank can go bankrupt, but I will buy your tortoiseshell ended Wheatstone baritone anytime Anyway we all agree that playing a good instrument is a pleasure that cannot be expressed in monetary value. If you can afford it buy a vintage instrument, if you can't you will have to settle for the best your money can buy.

He was twelve when he got his present concertina, while he 'd be practising away we'd sit in the other room with a silly grin on our faces from enjoying the sound and tone of the concertina. Sums it all up doesn't it? Apparently the father knows how lucky he is to have a son that plays the concertina!

Even at double the price it would be no contest. I could easily have bought my son a new hybrid for half the price of the one he is playing now. The thought never even crossed my mind. Does your son know how lucky he is to have a father like you?

Now this is hell for me! (not a great lover of PA's, although the alternative of only harps is not very attractive either...)

I am an atheist, but I love to play in churches!

That is exactly how I write my tunes,except that I have a dictaphone normally in the car and the improvisation ,or note sequence is worked out in my head not normally on the concertina and sung into the dictaphone. It is best to initially work on an A part of the tune and then add the B part later. Then I see if it works on the concertina. One tune however Chocolate Rabbit came about from me trying out what I considered to be the best left hand notes for my style of play and with that tune the B part was compiled first and in the shortest time for anything I have ever put together .The A took considerably longer. In amongst all your little bits of improvisation you probably have a fantastic tune and the next step is to start assembling it,some bits will work with others some bits will not.Some assembled bits may again need improvisation to get it into some sort of order.What you are doing is experimentation and that is how you will move forward. Al New tunes emerge in my head sometimes as well. I remember one particular case in which I had an interesting melody in my head, but nothing to record. I knew if I wouldn't record it it would be lost. So I phoned myself and got the answering machine and sang the melody into it.

This forum has loads of discussion on existing tunes; how to play them etc. But rarely I hear about people improvising on the concertina. I mainly play existing Irish tunes on the concertina, but a considerable chunk of my playing time is spent on improvising. With me I tend to sit quite relaxed (not in the performance position...) and just randomly playing whatever sequences of notes, until a structure emerges and I build on that. Or I have a little theme in my head and improvise/explore this theme as much as I can. The music resulting from these improvisations is not always that interesting but most of the time fun to do. But every now and then a tune is born. If I like it or find it promising (to work on it later) I quickly record it on my minidisk player (I am an illiterate musician). By now 8 discs filled with bits and pieces, ideas, complete tunes etc. Some I find trash, some interesting enough to spend time on and several pieces of my repertoire are thus (home)made. Interesting enough most of these pieces do not sound Irish at all. So I would be interested to know: Do you improvise? How? Are new tunes being made as a result? If not how do you make a new tune?

For me it makes a big difference how I first learn a tune. If I learn it initially by ear it tends to stick after only a few plays, whereas if I learn from the dots I never seem to be able to ween myself off having the music in front of me, however often I play it. If I know I am going to have to play a dot-learned tune without music I have to have a practice session when I refer to the music only as a reminder then look away to play - it's like learning the tune all over again but this time by ear. Ray If you can sing (or lilt or hum) the musical piece, no matter if it is a song, march, or dance music, than it is in your head and you should be able to play it. Of course sometimes you will have the difficulty of finding the tune in your head but it will be there (if you find a first sequence of notes you will find the tune). But these are two different things! I must know hundreds of Irish and Breton tunes that I can play. And than there is also many other non traditional music in my head too. These range from children songs, pop, rock, pieces of classical music (hard to remember a whole concerto, but easy to rember the themes), to even commercial tv jingles. These I should be able to play as well (the difficult ones slowly, the easy ones reasonably fast). This is why some people tend to listen a lot to a piece before actually playing it. The problem with sheet music is that you do not have to memorize it in order to play the notes right, so apparently you don't (I do not read myself). A good memory can serve a musician well and gives certain advantages. But it is only one aspect of a good musician and not the most important. You can make great music without a great memory. And my driving force to play concertina: beautiful instrument, in every aspect (like the ideal woman...- before I get remarks - forget the word instrument and emphasize on beautiful and every aspect). Furthermore being a flute player initially, for me it adds the following: no need to blow it and keep your embouchure (its a lot easier to get a good sound of it, and the bellow technique is also easier). And it allows you to play double notes and chords. And then there is the music (but that is not only concertina related) wheter you play alone, with a partner, a session or a performance. When thing work OK it is pure bliss (of course one has its off days/moments too ).

Hee Ceemonster - looks like you learned some music and picked up a huge ''music class trauma'' at the same time?! Classes or workshops with Edel and Tim were fun and not to be compared with what you went through. Dirk - Yes they have no problem at all with the odd EC in their classes (there was even a duet at Tim's workshop I followed). But beware both do not know how to hold an EC let alone how to play one. So you learn a tune and when techniques are discussed and demonstrated you have to be creative and try to apply what the AC does on the EC. Sometimes it will be impossible or you have to give it your own twist, but a lot of techniques can easily be done on the EC too. They can listen and tell you if it sounds right. Every workshop I did (In all I did 4 AC workshops and one EC) I learned just a few (one or two only) techniques that I started to apply and gradually improved my playing towards a more diversified and richer Irish like style (I hope). Hermann

I play about one hour a day. But there are days I do not play at all, or days I will play two hours or (rarely) three. I play new tunes. But I also rework old ones that I learned a few years ago. Because my abilities / technique has changed (for the better I hope) I can add to an old tune and make it more interesting than before. In fact when I learn a tune I start learning the basic tune, and then there is a (more creative) process of what can be done with that tune and what ornamentations, chords, variations etc. I can apply to that tune. At the end I play the tune and have an array of possibilities to pick from as I feel inclined at that moment. At the beginning the possibilities are limited because your technique is limited. I have fun in using technique not for technique sake but to broaden my possibilities. I am now sweating on playing melody on two octaves at once (hard on the EC especially when you want to do it fast and smooth - a lot easier on the AC).

Well it is quite simple in fact: For English music you stand, for Irish music you sit! For other kinds of music you do whetever you want

Just being (very) curious how ''English international'' is doing? Did I miss something? Can we expect this audio juwel to appear on the market any moment now? Keep me (us) informed Al... Thanks, Hermann