Richard Morse

This is interesting as the box you're talking about is one of our Ceili's. We designed that instrument to be as "average" as possible. We started out by making Xeroxes of the endplates (disassembled) of about twenty 30 button English-made anglos (an even distribution of makes, and only the better models), discarded the few really seriously anomalous ones and averaged the rest by regularizing each's layout then applying those patterns to averaging and worked out a mathematical concept behind the pattern. We did weigh our choice of design to be slightly further from the handle than the average was, and gave a bit extra favor toward Jeffries curvature (though not pattern slant). I mention this as the chance of you coming across a vintage anglo (or new designed after such) with any greater distance between the handle and buttons will be extremely rare. I've known many folk with hands as large as yours that play the anglo. They usually play with the straps fairly loose (as I do too) and with the hands back from being totally engaged in the handstrap. There are also fairly easy ways to modify the handles for larger hands (far easier than altering the button end of things!). Rather than having a simple thin, vertical wooden bar there, a curved bar can be installed (that curves back toward your body, which has the same effect as making it larger toward your body but preserves the original connection to the box and doesn't interfere with the fretwork). The leather strap can also replaced with one with a scoop out of the front (for your knuckles) and which provides more material at the back edge (for support).

Hah! And I was not going to respond, but to make you feel better Chris, right now it's 9°F outside (that's -13°C) and expected to get considerably cooler tonight. And actually, that's not so bad. In the last couple of weeks it's been down to -15°F and if you include the windchill on a couple of particularly cold nights, -45°F (which is almost the same in Celsius!).

We happen to have a concertina like this sitting up on our "museum" shelf. Ours appears to be a bit fancier model but in much worse condition. It is as you suspect, Chris, a double anglo with typical German action, ganged reeds, etc.

I've tried a number of piano rags though only a very few will "fit" on my 46-key Hayden (it doesn't have enough range as it tops out at the high D). Judicious transposing is a must to make even those few work. Fun stuff though!

The way I do it is that when you're in the "add reply" or "quote" editor thing, just scroll down to the posting you want to quote and select the text you want to quote, then go back to your edit window and hit the "quote" button above it. If you use the "normal" mode, pressing that "quote" button will put this text into your edit window: [ QUOTE ] but without the spaces adjacent to the brackets. Then paste what you want quoted in, and then hit the "quote" button again (note that the button will have an * after it which means that that action has not been "closed). When you do hit that button to close it, it will put this text into your edit window: [ /QUOTE ] but again without the spaces adjacent to the brackets. To see what this all looks like you can hit the "preview" button which shows you what it will look like if posted as well as in another edit window so that you can alter and add. If you want to reference whom you quoted from, right after the word "quote" in the brackets, add an = sign and then whatever text you want which will be the only thing that is visible when posted. Such would look like: [ QUOTE=Joe Blow ] but again without the spaces adjacent to the brackets. Now I'll copy your first few words this way for "real" for you so see what this is like: And then you can write a response and do the same thing to quote from another part of that message or someone else's message like: If you "add reply" to this message to open up the edit window you'll see how this all works. Usually what I do is to delete everything the the "Original Post to Quote" window just prior to the first time I "preview post" as it usually gets in the way of what I want to do. Note that at the bottom of the page there's a button that lets you open up a new window with the topic. That way you can keep the edit window going and still scroll around and copy from whatever you want to. Note that there is a "Discussion Form" called "Tests" which you can try all this stuff out with impunity. I've found it handy to copy various posts that have nested and extensive color, bold, size, etc. to this place which when viewed in the edit window will give you an idea of how this all works.

There *are* some things that can be done to improve a Bastari somewhat which includes tuning, resetting reedplates, revoicing reed tongues, gaskets/leak chasing, and action replacement. Bob Tedrow has done this sort of "souping up" of Bastaris for years - and so could give you a better idea of costs vs. improved quality. I'd hazard to guess that any improvement beyond 10-15% would be totally cost prohibitive as there wouldn't be anything left to improve. You'd have to get into whole hog redesign and replacement (not to mention repairing an already ailing box, in your case). I doubt if a Bastari could ever be improved to even approach the quality of one of the new mid-range anglo concertinas, much less that of a decent vintage anglo.

It would be much more responsive if you would use the "edit and quote" features of this forum.

Does your "cost" mean materials? And if you figure an amount of $35/hr for labor (which includes overhead), then the button modification would be about $250 and the handles to be about $130. That sounds in the ballpark to me. Please let me know where to buy perfect hard cases for $20. Our cost several times that!

Because the few people who DO make them are unwilling to sell them to other people. Also, those reedmakers are unable to make reeds in large enough quantities even if they were amenable to selling them. Another reason is that the method of installing the reeds in concertinas is considerably more difficult (and hence would make the instrument more expensive) that with accordion reeds. Yes. NO ONE makes concertina reed sets for sale. That would seem so! Unfortunately this also means that that guy would have to make his own reeds (or coerce someone else to make them for him) which is an immense undertaking. I speak from experience. I tried that myself too and found it very difficult to differentiate. Problems include the quality of the mic used to record the instruments, the record bit rate/compression levels/format, and my computer sound card and speakers. The concertinas would be much easier to differentiate in person. Besides the sound qualities, concertina and accordion reeds have very different response qualities which can be better personally experienced rather than over the internet.

"Boldly grabbing the challenge" requires the will (as in the desire to do it) and the way (as in the time it would take and money it would cost to do it). Even you, Goran, are unwilling to provide the way (scaled drawings and money to enable the creation of your designs). How can you expect us to do more? While I admire and respect vintage concertina makers, my concertinas DO vary considerably from traditional design/construction (as do most of the other current makers). Your insinuation that makers demur to take on a "challenge" due to safety in tradition is myopic and disingenuous of you. There are many reasons why makers choose not to develop your ideas.

Your claims here do not seem to reflect reality. I consider that your modification suggestions in actuality would be extremely difficult for anyone (and considerably difficult for those with the knowledge/skills/tools/time/inclination), would cost a substantial amount of money to perform, and have a very high chance of disturbing the shape of the instrument. What is the basis of your claim of "fact"? Without substantiation your "facts" are nothing more than allegations. Your credibility is at stake here (or maybe you were making a joke?). For every modification you have suggested, please estimate the amount of time it would take a skilled workman to perform. To begin with, considering your modifications restricted to keeping the "orginal instrument shape", please provide cost estimates for modifying an existing instrurment for: 1. Larger buttons 2. Retrofit handles 3. New case to accommodate insturment with larger handles Anthing else (large button spacing, changing the action to bandoneon type, altering the reeds to be in banks, etc.) would mean serious modifications to the size of the instrument. As this thread has mainly been about creating a new squeezebox instrument pursuant to your ideas, I'm assuming that your claim that it would be easy and wouldn't cost much also applys to creating NEW instruments as you've said that your are "confident there are no major obstacles to realize" creating your hybrid instrument. Please provide an estimate that your hybrid concertina would cost to design and create: 3. The "Goran" 30 button hybrid concertina as you've described in your first few messages in this thread with cost estimates broken down for: 3a. Action design 3b. Reedbank design 3c. Bellows design (inlcuding custom bellows jig) 3d. Carcass design (including fretwork) 3e. Handle design 3f. Integration of the above and other associated parts 3g. Creation of several prototypes 3h. Creation of the final product.

I use a tobacco pouch humidifier which is similar to your homemade device but smaller and doesn't leak no matter what position it's in and how hard it gets knocked. It's the material in the cap that does the trick. Pretty cheap at about 3 bucks and easily fits inside my case.

By "projecting" do you mean "wondering if it is theoretically feasible"? What are you confident about? Unless your ideas are created, I fail to see how you can be confident that it will work. Effort is *expected* - to create stuff, and scaled drawings are an expected and integral part of creating such a complex thing. I believe that is precisely the case. There seems to be an overwhelming lack of interest in the type of instrument you are proposing (at least in this forum). Maybe you should take up your cause in a bandoneon/chemnitzer forum? Your instrument would need to be about 20mm wider for reedblocks that are 6 reedplates long (but why do you need 6 long for a 30 button anglo?). If having a chemnitzer type action that does not fall beneath the button area, the instrument would need to be at least 15mm longer (and considering that the top buttons to be about 10mm from the edge of the instrument). It would be possible to have a chemitzer-like action BETWEEN and UNDER the buttons which would be quite difficult to do, but that would retain your specified size instrument. Your instrument would have to be corresponding deeper.

An incredibly major and unavoidable obstacle is in COMPENSATING (as in paying money to) someone to "realize" the instrument. Why are you confident that this is not an issue?

It sounds like we *are* doing this. And I have no personal interest in spending any effort to *make* such a "reformed" instrument. A one-of-a-kind custom built instrument can still be viable (for that purpose) without needing to be commercially viable. Very little is accomplish with little effort. Creating even a single decent prototype from conceptual ideas takes a massive amount of effort. If you won't apply effort, and I (and other makers?) won't, then nothing will be realized. That's true, but the improvements would be far from "simple" modifications, and in any case any arrangement of a design (let alone coming up with a new design) takes a lot of effort. I think that making a "simple" instrument from your conceptual designs is doable providing that someone compensates us for doing it and that we agree to take the job on.

I like the idea of this "Tunes Round Robin" and the "combined Concertina Virtual Disk" ..... But .... is this to be only for anglos?

I hope that you, Goran, appreciate/realize that I (and other concertina makers) are unwilling to spend massive amounts of effort to see if your ideas are viable. YOU need to put in the effort sufficient to convince us to take appropriate steps. I regard making prototypes from insufficient design to be a vast waste of resources and time. Concertinas are INCREDIBLY complex. Not until you try making them yourself will you have a reasonable idea of how much knowledge, skill, and time designing a concertina takes. Both I and Frank have listed many specific difficulties that can only be overcome with scaled drawings rather than conceptual designs. For instance you said: which is not readily applicable for the quality of instruments we want to produce. Bandoneon/chemnizter actions are inherently uneven and not well balanced, have excessive friction and wear, and take up a lot more room that concertina actions do. Even not considering any of this, there is still the issue of locating all the action parts to be able to work given your conceptual location of the keys and reedblocks. Your conceptions don't address HOW it can be made to work. I can't imagine how. That is why we need scaled drawings.

I thought that that istrument had reeds mounted as traditional concertinas, not on blocks as accordions? In any case, I haven't heard it so don't know what the sound is like. Have you?

For those who find a generic "one size" instrument uncomfortable to use doesn't mean that the instrument is defective. It just means that the person and that instrument are not a good "fit". There is nothing wrong with the instrument nor the person. Also - Goran, PLEASE use the "Quote" feature when responding to posts. Your interleaved responses are VERY hard to understand.

Apparently a lot of people LIKE that "raw" sound. Many people like bagpipes and shawms too. If could be that it is not possible to secure a "concertina sound" with reeds in reedblocks. No one has produced such an instrument yet. If producing concertinas were simple there would be many makers of concertinas with Jeffries and Wheatstone Aeola characteristics.

I assure you that there are many people puzzled by the affection that accordion and bandoneon players have for their instruments' sounds. Preference among "common listeners" greatly depends upon the sampling of listeners and the type of music played. Do you think a random sampling of folks taking in a concert in Ireland would favor a bandoneon sound over a "British style" concertina?

I had mentioned earlier in this thread that "Most vintage instruments had drawn metal buttons or capped metal tubes" both which are pretty easy to do with the proper tools (which doesn't include a lathe). Small "deep drawing" machines are readily available and can easily make concertina buttons though it would probably be less expensive to job out the order (we had several buttons made for our consideration when we were first designing our concertinas). The result is a elongated metal cap created out of a single piece of flat stock. The hollow center could be fitted with a stem of any material. The capped metal tube design is simpler as it needs no special machine to create. Most vintage concertinas using this design had the outer end capped with solder (like?) material and hollow center fitted with a plastic or wood stem. Sometimes a metal stem was used that filled the entire core so the capping was unnecessary. One possible design which I haven't seen would be to use a tube with a delrin core running all the way through, and finishing off the outer end which would result in a button with a circular inlay effect. It could be as subtle as a german silver tube with white delrin center or more arresting with a black delrin center....

Yes, we call them blocks or banks pretty interchangeably though we think of a "bank" (of reeds) to usually represent the gamut of reeds in a holding device (such as a reed block). That way that holder-of-reeds can be of shapes other than block-y (extruded rectangular shaped?). Your drawings AD2 and EI show the banks being positioned over the bellows fold-encroaching area. To get enough reeds into the instrument (and keep to the sizes you mentioned) would put some of the banks below the keyed areas. The sound is only partially a reed tongue matter, and partially a reed shoe (or plate) matter, and majorly a mounting and tone chamber matter. For example, mounting an accordion reed assembly (reed/plate/rivet) hard onto or into a reed pan of which the chambers are directly a part of will effect a much more concertina type sound than a having a reed assembly (of any type) mounted in a separate reed bank (somewhat) perpendicular to the sound board (or action board). Do you know of ways to modify reed chambers in blocks to effect a concertina type sound?

Then why do so many people make a big deal of how much concertinas weigh and prefer lighter ones? Maybe in principal but not in reality. Rationality doesn't seem to enter into the equation much either. Note that very few concertina players use a neck strap, and the most common way of playing a BA in Ireland is to use only a single shoulder strap rather than a pair. Several people have reported to us that solid buttons have appreciable mass which limits their ability to play crisply and quickly (especially triplets) due to their inertia. I've heard that that was the main reason why Hamish started drilling out his buttons (in order to make them lighter).

I've heard that the first instrument in space was a Hohner "Little Lady" model harmonica in 1965. It was "smuggled" aboard the Gemini 4 spacecraft by astronaut Wally Schirra who played Jingle Bells on it. A free-reed cousin!