Dave Rogers

Sounds cool. An electric concertina (like an electric guitar) then? That's why I suggested one for playing the Dr Who theme. You didn't ask ME what one was. I shall go off in a huff now...

One of my all-time favourite albums is "The Lady and the Unicorn" by John Renbourn (a mixture of renaissance, baroque and folk tunes mostly played on guitar). On one or two tracks, Alf Edwards on English concertina plays along with guitar, fiddle and flute and it sounds great. So all three of those instruments would get my vote! I've also heard Alistair Anderson play EC along with fiddle, viola and cello, which also sounded pretty amazing. How about clarsach too?

I'd just like to point out that LDT and I are not, in fact, in the same room...

Have you seriously considered taking up Crown Bowls? You'd be a natural.

Oi! Get this over onto the proper thread, NOW!

Duly cut n' pasted! QUOTE (david_boveri @ Oct 16 2008, 12:49 AM) sorry to say you havent been working very well. dont blame anyone else, please. you can blame the situation, sure... you never had anyone hold you accountable for your attention, time committed, and approach to music. but then again, i'm sure you havent held yourself accountable either. it's not about working hard enough, it's about working well. please practice for 5 hours a day for 10 years Without wishing to get into a protracted argument with you and/or David Levine, I feel I have to say one or two things more on this subject. Firstly, I think that we're not comparing like with like. Both of you appear to be talking about top-flight professional musicians. I would guess that the majority of the people posting on this forum are (like myself) hobbyists. We have day jobs, families and interests other than music. It's unrealistic to practice for 5 hours a day. I play fiddle probably as well as the famous Morris fiddler Jinky Wells (pretty roughly, judging from the recordings I've heard, but he was getting on in years by the time he was recorded) and my music is danceable-to, which is the most important thing for my purposes. I will never play well enough to carry a slow air in a performance situation, but then I recognise that I'm not prepared to "practice for 5 hours a day for 10 years" in order to achieve that. And I'm not seeking to blame anybody else. I'm sorry if anything in my original post suggested that I was. I have never had a violin lesson in my life. Why? Because I'm strongly left-handed and no violin teacher is prepared to teach a left-hander as they'd look "wrong" in an orchestra (no matter that I don't want to play in an orchestra or indeed to play classical music at all). I've no doubt picked up all sorts of bad habits, but playing the fiddle is not the main focus of my life (or of my music, since acquiring an Anglo concertina!). On the question of whether or not evidence exists for innate musical talent, there is (as in so many other things) no *definitive* evidence one way or the other. Googling "myth of musical talent" is obviously going to retrieve articles that support that side of the argument. A search of the Psycinfo database reveals as many academic papers in favour of "talent" as the opposing view, e.g. Gagne, Francoys Nature or nurture? A re-examination of Sloboda and Howe's (1991) interview study on talent development in music. Psychology of Music, 1999, vol./is. 27/1(38-51) Abstract:Comments on the article by J. A. Sloboda and M. J. Howe (see record 1991-30071-001) examining the backgrounds of promising young musicians. Gagne demonstrates that the authors incorrectly interpreted their data because they did not acknowledge the role of musical giftedness as a significant determinant of the large differences observed in their sample between exceptional and average students. Gagne intends to show that their results cannot be correctly interpreted without introducing musical aptitudes as a significant causal factor. In other words, the answer is not as clear-cut as both Davids would have us believe. In case you're wondering how I've accessed a database that isn't freely available via Google, I'm an NHS Clinical Effectiveness Librarian by profession (unfair advantage!) and have the appropriate passwords.

Without wishing to get into a protracted argument with you and/or David Levine, I feel I have to say one or two things more on this subject. Firstly, I think that we're not comparing like with like. Both of you appear to be talking about top-flight professional musicians. I would guess that the majority of the people posting on this forum are (like myself) hobbyists. We have day jobs, families and interests other than music. It's unrealistic to practice for 5 hours a day. I play fiddle probably as well as the famous Morris fiddler Jinky Wells (pretty roughly, judging from the recordings I've heard, but he was getting on in years by the time he was recorded) and my music is danceable-to, which is the most important thing for my purposes. I will never play well enough to carry a slow air in a performance situation, but then I recognise that I'm not prepared to "practice for 5 hours a day for 10 years" in order to achieve that. And I'm not seeking to blame anybody else. I'm sorry if anything in my original post suggested that I was. I have never had a violin lesson in my life. Why? Because I'm strongly left-handed and no violin teacher is prepared to teach a left-hander as they'd look "wrong" in an orchestra (no matter that I don't want to play in an orchestra or indeed to play classical music at all). I've no doubt picked up all sorts of bad habits, but playing the fiddle is not the main focus of my life (or of my music, since acquiring an Anglo concertina!). On the question of whether or not evidence exists for innate musical talent, there is (as in so many other things) no *definitive* evidence one way or the other. Googling "myth of musical talent" is obviously going to retrieve articles that support that side of the argument. A search of the Psycinfo database reveals as many academic papers in favour of "talent" as the opposing view, e.g. Gagne, Francoys Nature or nurture? A re-examination of Sloboda and Howe's (1991) interview study on talent development in music. Psychology of Music, 1999, vol./is. 27/1(38-51) Abstract:Comments on the article by J. A. Sloboda and M. J. Howe (see record 1991-30071-001) examining the backgrounds of promising young musicians. Gagne demonstrates that the authors incorrectly interpreted their data because they did not acknowledge the role of musical giftedness as a significant determinant of the large differences observed in their sample between exceptional and average students. Gagne intends to show that their results cannot be correctly interpreted without introducing musical aptitudes as a significant causal factor. In other words, the answer is not as clear-cut as both Davids would have us believe. In case you're wondering how I've accessed a database that isn't freely available via Google, I'm an NHS Clinical Effectiveness Librarian by profession (unfair advantage!) and have the appropriate passwords. Apologies to LDT for inadvertently subverting what was originally a perfectly innocent question! Whoops - I've "crossed" with LDT's last post - If any Mod wishes to make this into a new thread on "Talent", please do...

I'm with Anglo Irishman on the "talent" thing. It's a bit of a fairy tale (fostered by shows like the X Factor) that anybody can achieve anything they want if only they work hard enough. It's a bit akin to wealthy self-made types who feel that nobody needs to be poor, they just have to get off their backsides and work. Life ain't like that, unfortunately. I've worked really hard at playing the fiddle over the years, and I'm *still* rubbish...

Probably better on a MIDI concertina...

Hi Jim - The tune that Brian plays goes with the song of the same name (a poem by WB Yeats): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_By_The_Salley_Gardens

That's not the only theme, either - "I started out 40 years ago" seems to be another. What was it about 1968? A Bodhran (pronounced something like "bow-rawn") is a frame drum used (at least since Sean O'Riada popularised it in the 1950s) in Irish traditional music. It's one of those instruments that musicians playing melody instruments love to hate as it's so often played badly. Hence the huge number of bodhran jokes (Martyn's already mentioned one). Other favourites being "The best way to play a bodhran is with a knife" or the one about the chap who walks into an Irish session carrying a suspicious-looking bag. When challenged as to its contents, he replies, "Its 5lb of Semtex and a stack of detonators - want to make something of it?". To which the relieved musicians reply, "Thank God, we were afraid it might be a bodhran". To be fair, a lot of the bodhran jokes are generic and you can just insert the name of whatever instrument you don't happen to like (banjos and hurdy-gurdies being the usual substitutes). p.s. *Good* bodhran players are a delight to listen to - like this guy: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0WC1r-yDvLQ

I love the sound those "Thumb Pianos" make. A few years back, Micheal O'Suilleabhain presented a TV series about Irish music called "River of Sound". At the end of the last programme, an ensemble of musicians played a piece of epic proportions, employing a combination of Irish Trad, jazz and African instruments and sounds. I'm pretty certain that one of the African musicians was playing a Mbira.

Ah, yes, the album with the unfortunate title: http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7666098 I wonder if that's why there was "No artwork available at this time"?

Like Martyn, I took up guitar 40 years ago. Was given a fiddle when I was 18 and played that for Morris dancing for many years. Started playing melodeon in 1980 and continued until May this year when it got part-exchanged for an Anglo concertina! Sum total of instruments now owned: 1 acoustic guitar, 1 electric, 1 bass, a concertina, a fiddle, and a bodhran (which is of course a musical instrument but not necessarily when I play it). I've also got a tin whistle or two somewhere but prefer not to talk about it...

Hi Phil I play this tune on a G/D box, across the rows, and I think (from my limited knowledge of musical theory) I must be playing it in G (first note is a pull on the third button in on the D row, right hand - which according to the charts I've seen is a "G"). I don't know how I'd go about playing it in D (playing by myself does have its advantages as I can use whatever key I like!), but I'm sure someone like Chris Timson will be along soon to advise...

Yes, I certainly take your point about the shanties, but I've heard too many floorsingers in folk clubs trying to sound like Mike Waterson to agree about singing regional songs in the appropriate accents! Even Martin Carthy (who sounds like himself, whatever the origin of the song he is singing) used to adopt what he now refers to as his "all-purpose rural accent" on his early recordings. You're quite right about singers mangling songs in Lalland Scots (for example). I'm not sure that Englishmen are *that* much more tolerant about how their songs are sung, but I'm reasonably certain that most wouldn't appreciate someone trying to sing one of "their" songs in faux Geordie, Mummerset, or even "Mockney" (Fake Cockney). :-)

Apologies if this is old news, but there's some good concertina stuff available in this series, including http://www.free-reed.co.uk/frrr15 and http://www.free-reed.co.uk/frrr12 Various boxed-set deals going should you be interested. Nice to to see the Old Swan Band material available again.

Eh? The repertoire of many singers includes traditional (non-shanty) songs originating from counties as far apart as Somerset, Norfolk and Yorkshire. I can't think of anyone who sings in a variety of dialects to reflect that. Not that many pure dialect words made it past the Victorian and Edwardian collectors in the first place. I assume that you do mean "dialect" rather than "accent"? Southerners sometimes have to make concessions for the sake of the rhyme ("lass" and "grass", for example), but nothing sounds worse than somebody aping a regional accent that isn't their own.

I've had this song on the brain ever since it featured in the recent BBC dramatisation of Tess of the Durbervilles. I've found that the only way to get songs off my brain is to record them, so it's now on SoundLantern: http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPa...32008122347.mp3

http://www.concertina.info/tina.faq/images/finger4.htm

Lovely! Just added both to my YouTube Concertina playlist!

Ah, but concertinas aren't the only hexagonal things in the multi-verse. Honeycomb is composed of hexagonal cells - the hexagonal console in the TARDIS is an obvious reference to (and prophecy for) the disappearence of the bees from Earth...

"The catapult was recreated by a team of experts, following all known records, as accurately as possible – and then successfully fired." A pedant writes: I do wish that descriptions of pre-gunpowder-period missile-launchers didn't always refer to the things being "fired". Just watch any film or TV programme that has archery in it - you can guarantee that the captain of archers will yell "Fire!!!" as soon as the enemy come into range... "Shoot" or "Loose", if you please...

Just occasionally, some good seems to come out of my general state of total confusion...

Lovely playing! And I was amazed to recognise the Scottische version of Roslin Castle (never having heard the tune before) as being very close to the (Trad French?) tune I know as Scottische a Bethanie: