bill_mchale

Just a thought, but at a lecture that Gearoid O hAllmhurain gave in the Catskills this year on Irish Music in Clare, he mentioned that ,prior to the Famine, pipes appeared to be the dominant instrument in Clare Music and that the Concertina started showing up in Clare around the time of the famine. I don't know if there is any direct link between the piping and the concertina link, but perhaps knowing this could have influenced some concertina players to try to emulate the pipes in their playing style? -- Bill

On this I can argee. I listen to fiddlers and borrow from their work (Irish, Acadian, old time and bluegrass), but as of late it is the Irish style tenor banjo that has been of interest. Particularly the repeated notes. An English can really pull that off. There will be no hits from me on your point of view. It has been reasoned, without any hint of incendiary intent or musical bigotry. Thank you. Thanks Mark, and I think if you can combine elements of both Banjo and Fiddle, then you really will start carving a niche for the instrument... Now get out there and start recording. -- Bill

I wish I could agree with you on that Al. There are more than one of those bears in the woods at this moment. The war whoops from the AC only camp will continue to drown them out. In the end it is an interesting but non-productive topic. If the player does not attempt to attain an AC like "bounce" or "lift" with AC centered ornaments, it will not be accepted. If some poor bloak breaks his back playing an EC like an AC he is smacked or slighted as we have seen here. I will tell you that Irish musicians have said to me that they often recoil at the arrival of an AC player with bounce, lift and volume to burn for it is feared that the possible onslaught of teeth cracking volume and bounce will overtake the session. I will continue to play Irish music with musicians whose decernment I admire and require no offical recognition for my efforts. Well there are alot of players of almost any instrument that an Irish Musician will recoil when they arrive. It doesn't really matter whether they are playing the accordion, concertina, whistle, pipes, fiddle etc. That being said, often times loud players don't realize how loud they are playing, so sometimes a friendly word is all it takes to reduce their volume (This was true of an Anglo player who was a regular at a Thursday Night Session.. as soon as he was told he made a serious effort to lower his volume and has fit in much better since then). Now regarding, the one great musician for the English... I don't think that person has arrived on the scene yet. Yes there are some very talented musicians who play Irish on the English. But as thread has shown, none of them have recorded a CD. Let be honest, recording music is how a musician becomes known. There are 70 or 80 years worth of recordings of Irish Music on the Anglo from William Mullaly (sp?) up through the current crop of players. Nothing comperable yet exists for the English. Now, regarding the English players, I am sorry that the English players feel slighted by what they perceive as a bias against them by Anglo Players or even other Trad Musicians, but that is because Traditional Music is justly suspicious of innovation. Those who want to bring in innovation have to prove themselves in the music. Ultimately, I don't think that is accomplished by trying sound exactly like another instrument in the tradition, its rather from finding a new unique niche in the music. There is no point in making the English sound like an Anglo... we already have the Anglo. Players of B/C accordions and C#/D accordions don't try to sound like each other.. and neither tried to sound like the G/Ds that preceded them in the Music. When the B/C emerged in the 1950s, guys like Sonny Brogan and the original Paddy O'Brien encountered every bit as much prejudice (actually probably quite a bit more) as the English does now... but you know what, with their development of their own style of playing and more importantly their recording of the music they ultimately won over the doubters. At the moment really, no one has emerged among English Players of ITM who really come close to fulfilling that role. I know I am going to get accused of bashing the English again for this post, I am sorry, but that is just they way I feel. I don't hate the English, I just haven't heard anything done on the instrument that to mind really attempts to carve a niche for itself. Playing like an Anglo really doesn't count... as I said, we have Anglos already, why try to make another instrument sound like it? Want the English to Break out, get a really talented English Player to release a CD of ITM that is authentic to the Music but played in a way that simply couldn't be done on the Anglo (My guess is that since the English was designed to take violin parts in classical music, that emulating the Fiddle might be a way to go). -- Bill

Need there be? Al, my thoughts are with Stehpen. I trust he'll bounce back. Good luck on your search. Yes, I think there does. I have talked to more than a few noted Trad Musicians, and most have them have talked about the person they took lessons from at one point or another. Yes maybe, some great players will emerge without instruction, but many more could never realize their potential without it. -- Bill

Alan, Just curious, did she win it in the general concertina competition or in the miscellaneous instrument side (i.e., I know that the All Ireland sometimes groups instruments that are not common into a group, like when John Nolan won on the b/c/c# button accordion)? BTW, I hope Stephen recovers quickly; whatever he has, I hope it is not too serious. -- Bill

Yeah.. but alot of us Irish players don't live in Ireland . -- Bill

Wim, Thats great news... and I hope you are rewarded with enough orders to keep you profitably in buisness for many years. I got to try one of your 30 buttons in the Catskills this year and only regret that I am not quite in a position to order one right at this moment.. but maybe soon. BTW, the update to the webpage looks great.. I am still curious, what is different about the W-A eir, and why is it only available in Ireland? Mmm, I wonder if I sold all my other concertinas if I could raise enough... -- Bill

I would actually say that there is no need to do anything with the A... Essentially a cran is one of those things a concertina player does when someone on another instrument would do a true roll. So DdbD is perfectly fine... essentially the db takes the place of the middle D. -- Bill

You know it might be interesting to do some more experimentation with plastics. Like wood, different plastics have different properties; while some sound horrible, others might sound ok.. then again, they might all sound horrible.. After all concertinas are not whistles -- Bill

Bob looks great, did you have to make the instrument bigger to accomadate the extra buttons or was there enough room in your regular sized instruments/ -- Bill

I'm not trying to be flippant or short, but there could be any one or many of a hundred reasons, up to and including their web page is out of date; all speculation. Their website has a phone number in Texas. Would it be possible for you to ask them directly and then let us know?? They are here: http://www.concertinas.com/ . They would be the best ones to answer that themselves. As for the rest; it would only be an uneducated irrelavent guess on my part. Thanks Leo I am pretty sure the web page is out of date. I remember contacting Herrington a year or two ago about a square concertina and at the time he had said they had stopped making them. All that being said, the Herrington generally has a good reputation though not quite as visible as the Morse, Edgley and Tedrow makes (possibly because the other three post on C-net fairly regularly). Frank Edgley and Harold Herrington kind of have been co-developing their instruments for the last couple of years and Frank gives Harold credit for teaching him alot about making concertinas (you can read more about this here at http://www.concertina.net/fe_guild.html). Now mind you, this does not mean that Edgley and Herrington make identical instruments; far from it. Each of them make very distinctive instruments... but they do seem to share thoughts and ideas. -- Bill

Actually I would say that it is rather different than the English/Anglo transition simply because the English and Anglo systems are so different that it is hard to imagine that anyone could accidently slip between the systems. In contrast, the Jefferies and Wheatstone/Lachenal systems are similar enough (really only the right hand accidental row..) that I find if I am not careful I might hit a wrong button for the C#. In general I prefer the Jefferies system mainly because I like having the C# on two different buttons, but to each their own . -- Bill

They are what they are. The Chinese Concertina (CC) I have was significantly better than the plastic box I started on (on which I learned the basics well enough) and I've been able to get some (to me) decent sounding tunes out of it. I can't really justify spending much more for the role this one plays for me (as I've mentioned on C.net before, it sits out in the kitchen where I get a lot of chances to practice, but in an environment I wouldn't want to keep my Jones in ), so the Rochelle seems an ideal replacement. I've never had any of the problems with the CC that other posters have described - no sticking buttons, out of tune reeds and such like, and had they placed the buttons better I probably wouldn't have replaced it at all (on my one they're too close to the handrest & so seem suited to smaller hands). The air button has not been a problem on the CC unlike some other lower priced models I've tried - e.g. I tried the Stagi W-15-LN and hated where the air button was - too far away for my not so short thumb. With I understand what you're saying, but at $110 on Ebay for something you can get a tune out of, compared to say $1750 for a decent instrument like a Morse (15 times as much), I think an argument can be made that they're really good value for what they are. For instance you can get a poor quality guitar which you can get a tune out of for about $50, or a decent instrument for say $200 - 4 times as much - so the Chinese Concertinas are a bargain! I'm not going to defend the Chinese Concertinas as quality instruments, but they have their uses - particularly if you want to start learning but don't have much money - though I suspect the Rochelle will take away a lot of their market. - W Well we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. In general, I think the low end of the concertina market is too low, not on price but on quality and playability. You seem to have gotten a good one, but many others have not. In general a starter instrument should encourage the musician to keep playing, and I am afraid that too many people are buying these chinese boxes (and stagis too) and becoming discouraged rather than encouraged. -- Bill

If it aint you Frank, I would really like to know who it is; I thought I knew the websites of all North American and European Concertina Makers. -- Bill

I suspect that "cheap" may be only in price. A well made used instrument in good condition may hold it's value more than expected as last weeks ebay Jackie had a sell it now price close to its "new" price. This one has brothers and sisters in it's family that occasionally show up for similar. Who knows maybe in the future incarnation of concertina.net, our descendants will search out the Rochelle, and Jack/Jackie as we now look for Lachenals, and others. For their time some were inexpensive. Now we treasure them. I'm hoping it's more than wishful thinking. http://cgi.ebay.com/Used-Jackie-English-Co...1QQcmdZViewItem By the way Woody Please don't test this one like we discussed in the post on travel cases. Leave that to me if and when I get one. I feel that dreaded and desirable collecting disease coming on. Thanks Leo Well I think one needs to take what happens on Ebay with a grain of salt. I also think that the Jackie has not been around nearly long enough to be sure if they will last through the ages. However, the fact that Wakker will take the instruments in trade for his other instruments does mean that they are a safe buy. -- Bill

I got to try one briefly in the Catskills, its a nice instrument. Not as quite as nice as the Dippers I tried up there, but then again, I don't think anything is quite up the Dippers. Unfortunately I didn't get to try any Suttners this year so I can't do a direct comparison, but the Wakker owner also had a Suttner but choose to bring the Wakker to the Catskills instead. -- Bill

Well, I am going to recommend several . Since Irish Music is what you want to play, there are several good tutors out there (Thank goodness... you should see how awful it is for button accordions!). I would recommend both the Mick Bramitch The Irish Concertina and Frank Edgley's Tutor (The name escapes me at the moment). They both take different approaches. Mick's tutor is built around learning scales, and how to play the scales multiple ways. Frank's tutor on the other hand focuses on playing from the G row which is a very traditional way of playing in Clare and if you are a Chris Droney fan, you know how good it can sound (Not that Frank is anything but an excellent player, but Chris is amazing). Also Frank's tutor is excellent because it deals alot more with ornamentation of tunes, in particular playing octaves, rolls and cuts are all given a fair bit of treatement. The Bramitch book is a little more limited in that respect. One other tutor I would recommend is the Nial Valley Mad for Trad CDrom tutor. It is really nice to see some ornaments actually played out as opposed to described in a book. These tutors all contributed to me getting started on the Concertina. Good luck. -- Bill

My first impressions are very good, but this should be taken in the context that I've bought it to replace my Chinese 30 button box. It's a decent cheap starter model & I've tried Stagis costing twice as much which were not as good ( <IMHO> ) - but I would definitely be disappointed in it if I were paying the same for it as the Norman G/D I have on order This is a fair point, but if you watch Ebay you see lots of old cheap Concertinas going for a fair percentage of their new price. I wouldn't be surprised to see a decent used Rochelle to go for 60-70% of it's new value after a couple of years. - W Point taken, though if I had bought a Chinese concertina, I in good conscience could never sell it to anyone else. I simply don't believe the standard Chinese models are good enough to justify selling new, let alone new (but then again, I might be snob, I actually like to be able to reach the air button on the instruments I play (I have short fingers)). -- Bill

A little historical research means I stand corrected (although Paul precedes us both in this). Nevertheless I am prepared to take your place in order to help you fight the complaint yourself. We Timsons have a self-sacrificing streak a mile wide (we're also pretty good at self-deception). Chris Chris, as a good Catholic Boy, I could never let anyone take the burden of my cross upon himself, so I humbly decline your kind offer to take my place as the principle treater of this pernicious disease . Paul hasn't been very active in these threads for COAD, so I think we have to assume that circumstances have forced him to limit his availability for treatment. Now if I can just find someone who wants treatment . -- Bill

Obviously the question of whether you should buy the Rochelle or not depends on several factors. The most important factor is I think how long it would take you to save up the rest of the money? In general I recommend the midpriced ($1800-2000) instruments as starting instruments if it is at all possible. The Rochelle might be a great improvement over the Chinese boxes and the Stagis that are out there, but in general, I expect that the Rochelle, like those instruments will not be as durable as properly made concertinas (i.e. reed pan as opposed to reed blocks, and other details). Now the advantage of the Tedrows, the Edgley's, Morse's, etc. is that they tend to hold alot of their value. Even if you decide that concertina is not the instrument for you, you would be able to sell it on here for most of the money you invested in it (80=90% I should think). I am not sure the same will be true of the Rochelle. In any case, those instruments also have one other advantage and that is that other than their tone being a little different than instruments made with real concertina reeds, they give up very little compared to the Suttner's, Wakker's, Carrol, etc. Some people in fact prefer the sound of the Accordion reeded instruments and for them, these could well be lifetime instruments. Now mind you, the Rochelle does seem to be a great instrument for the price. Wim Wakker is certainly one of the great names in the modern concertina revival being the first person to provide instruments for all three market segments (The under $1000, under $2500 and skys the limit ). I am sure the Rochelle would provide at least several years of good service before it would need to be replaced or until you advanced past its limitations. But hey, why buy two concertinas if you don't have to (Wait, i should shut up before someone points out I have 3 ). -- Bill

I should just like to remind you, Bill, that I am ahead of you in the queue to be altruistic to people who wish to be cured of COAD by giving their concertinas away. I should hate for you to suffer the pain and harrassment of having more Dippers than you know what to do with, whereas I, I am strong! Chris How do you figure you are ahead of me in the queue Chris? I am pretty sure I was the one who suggested the treatment, and volunteered my services as collector extra concertinas? -- Bill

Hi Peter, thank you for the advice. Are you joking about concertinas in Co. Clare? Has C. Dipper moved? Colin lives in England, not in Ireland. I believe it was stated on a thread here not long ago that Colin had never even been in Ireland (Ironic considering how well his concertinas are regarded there). -- Bill

Jay, If it's of any comfort to you, you are not alone ... The condition even has a name: COAD (Concertina Obsessive Acquisition Disorder) and has been discussed here previously. Yes it does, and unforturtunately, the disease is still spreading. I am sad to report that no one has conquored it yet as none have accepted my generous offer to take their excess concertinas off their hands. I mean really people, admitting you have a problem is only the first step, not the final step . -- Bill

Fortunately Irish players don't feel quite the urge to get different tunings for their concertinas... I mean yes it is nice to have a C#/G# for those sessions where they tune up a half step, or a lowered tuned box (A/E, Bb/F or even G/D) for playing solo.. but by an large those are not essentials if your local session plays in the standard keys. Still, there is nothing worse than trying someone else's Dipper or Suttner when you don't have one of your own.. oh the bank account is draining.. . -- Bill

The question isn't about making them sound good. A cran or a 4 note fake roll sound just fine, but if you listen carefully, it will sound somewhat distinct from a true roll. Now if you are claiming that you have heard concertina players play true rolls, I would like to know whose so I can listen to them myself. Nope, not Anglo specific. I learned how to play rolls on a Button Accordion and on a Tin Whistle before I ever picked up a concertina (never got far on the whistle, guess the instrument was too inexpensive for me ). When ever I hear good players play the button accordion or the flute or a fiddle, I can't identify the specific pitch, but I can tell that they are different than the note that is being rolled. -- Bil