bill_mchale

I think John makes an excellent point. Both here and in other discussion groups (online and in real life), I have frequently encountered people who are relatively new to ITM come in and say something to the effect of... "This is really great, but it would be better if..." or "This music is great but I don't play any of those instruments, so I will just bring in X that I already have". The bazouki, for all its relative newness was brought in by people who were very familiar with the tradition. Noel Hill and most of the last generation or two of concertina players play very differently than the group that learned to play in the 1930s and 1940s, but they developed their new style inside the tradition. Do traditions change? Yep, absolutely. I like the analogy to a river... but the change here is not a question of the water flowing through it (Which I believe represents the people who play the music, from beginner to the most masterful player of the music), but a question of the path that the water takes. Yes the path will change from time to time, and at some points there might even significant changes in the course of the river, but the changes are only natural when the river changes itself... and this is important.. it only remains the same river if the source stays the same. -- Bill

My general thoughts on the matter is that it is better to play a few tunes well than many tunes poorly. Speaking from personal experience, if you decide to take your tunes out to a session, you will be appreciated more by the musicians and the listeners if you only play three tunes all night but play them really well than if you play fifty tunes poorly. The one time I impressed Billy McComiskey with my playing (I don't think he was impressed in an absolute sense, just in how far I had come on the concertina) it was with a tune I play often and which I had learned different ways to ornament it. Nothing makes you feel better than when a really good player gives you a smile and a nod while you are playing a tune with them. -- Bill

Harold, I hope you realize that any announcements of new instruments, even prototypes and proofs of concepts is only going to cause us to demand Pictures . Actually, I hope your idea really takes off. It would be nice if it helped keep your interest up and lowered the cost of making concertinas. One other thought on the accidental row. What variations of the Wheatstone and Jefferies are you planning on offering? Alternately, you could do a hybrid of the Wheatstone and Jefferies accidentals.. that way players of both systems would find it easy to adapt, and you can standardize even further. Oh one last thought... Great Name for the instrument.... -- Bill

Congrats on the instrument. The biggest issue with the instrument that I have had is keeping the ends looking great . It was enough to get me to change my order for a Suttner to wooden ends. Dana puts together a really tight box. The mechanicals behind each button is essentially a work of art... but engineered much better . -- Bill

I will also add my welcome. Truly its great to have guys like Harold, Frank and Dana on here as it was to have Richard Morse may he Rest in Peace. I always thought the square concertinas were very cool. It is a shame that some got hung up on the number of sides a concertina has rather than how good it sounds or how playable. -- Bill

That's exactly what I think. If the available instrument at the time would have been a G/D instead of C/G, likewise, Irish players would have adopted D/G and developed techniques that they would now call ITM. My point being that there doesn't seem to be any particular advantage of C/G for ITM, it's just "the chosen one" for historical reasons and habit. Yep, there are lots of instruments that could have been mainstays of ITM except for history and the habit of modern ITM players... but then again that is what makes it Traditional. It may not sound worse, but it doesn't mean it will necessarily sound Irish either. Its easy to play what if games regarding instruments. We have had discussions on here about B/C concertinas, and others about using English or Duet concertinas in Irish Music. All of them are fun (at least as long as they stay civilized), but lets remember that Tradition is kind of the opposite of innovation. This is not saying that innovation has no place in Irish Traditional Music, but there is a necessary resistance to innovation. Thats why Irish Music from the 1920s and 30s is still recognizably ITM to our ears. In contrast, The popular music of the 1970s is very different than the popular music of the 2000s. In my personal opinion, if one is going to "innovate" in Irish Music, one should do so from a position of knowledge. I.e., if you are going to replace C/G Anglo with a G/D, you probably should be able to demonstrate a reasonable level of mastery over the C/G first, otherwise, you can never really appreciate what you are giving up or gaining by making the switch. -- Bill

Have you played one before? They are really nice. I find the action in them to be very nice. And the price for what you get makes them perhaps the biggest bargain in the concertina world. -- Bill

Each generation leaves its mark. The playing of this generation will be echoed in the playing of the next just as our playing echoes the playing of the last. Thus when the old greats pass on, we can hope that part of them will remain with us... At least, I hope so. -- Bill

Congrats on the Edgley. I have had one for probably about 5-6 years now. And I have really enjoyed it. I have a Suttner on order that is going to require that I sell some of my toys to finance (Anyone want a Castagnari Ilary or a Saltarelle Tara?) but the Edgley is not going anywhere. I will probably remain my main backup instrument. -- Bill

Maybe you always use the c row G, but I think it is fair to say that others might not always use it (Excuse me for being pedantic, but it appears like you are saying that no one should use it). I have seen more than one player, including Chris Droney use the G row G very consistently. It all depends on the style you are trying to emulate. I agree that it is important to try that one for yourself. Different instruments definitely have stronger and weaker notes, but considering how many different ways there are of putting together a concertina, that I would suggest it is almost certainly false to say this is true for all instruments. -- Bill

Darn, and here I thought someone had invented a new type of concertina layout... Really, this thread is no fun at all . -- Bill

When you approach with an instrument, they run away? Sounds to me like they're just harsh critics. Nonsense. I always maintain a short hair cut and impeccable personal grooming, therefore, I must be a great player . Anyone who doesn't think so obviously has long hair and is therefore incapable of understanding how great my playing really is . I really need to find some YouTube videos to prop up my point -- Bill

I wonder if this is true ? It is cetainly true for me at the moment due to my greater familiarity of the middle row......... I haven't spent as much time using the inner row. I aspire (and perspire) to be as adept on the inner row as I am on the middle row. Is anything missing from the inner row to prevent one from doing on the inner row what one does on the middle row? ( I play a 38 keyed instrument) Is it just lack of ability ( or practise ) or a limitation of the instrument? Cheers Robin An F natural? I think it depends on what you want to do and what style playing you want to emulate. The biggest disadvantage, as far as I am concerned, with playing the Melody on the G row is that so much of it is played by the left hand... your right only gets to play a few notes in most tunes (on melody). Still this is the way that Chris Droney plays and I think everyone would agree that he is a great player. My preferred method is to play across the rows as much as possible. My basic principle is that if a note is available the index or middle finger of either hand, then I choose to use that one unless there is a compelling reason to use one that doesn't fall under those fingers (Which happens often enough). -- Bill

Thanks for proving my point. None of them can play ITM worth a Darn . How do you know, Bill? You've seen them, but you haven't heard them. And when it comes to playing by ear, I'm sure they're a looonng way ahead of you. Well I keep trying to listen to them play.. but every time I try to get close to them with a musical instrument, they run away. So, I think it is a reasonable assumption on my part that they are not good musicians. -- Bill

Jim, Thanks for proving my point. None of them can play ITM worth a Darn . -- Bill

Again showing you clearly don't understand ITM. Their stuff may have resembled ITM, but come on, they used new instruments added more rhythm... they were a complete travesty on the face of Irish Music. Sure, there was hardly any decent Irish Music recordings made in the 1970s.... it wasn't until the 1980s.. or even 1990s when proper grooming came back into fashion that real ITM came back into fashion . -- Bill

I am sorry Lawrence... your hairstyle demonstrates that you just don't get Irish Traditional Music. Maybe if you had listened to the music more closely you would have understood that men are to be neatly groomed at all times. And don't even get me started on how you are dressed . -- Bill

Thanks Frank. Heck, most of what I know about Octave playing I learned from your tutor.. I knew something was going on when I would listen to recordings of some of the older players, but I wasn't sure what until you explained it . I have never managed to play octave passages, but using an octave on a long note as become a pretty common alternative for me to a roll (depending where in the tune of course ). -- Bill

Sorry for jumping in, I haven't been on c-net for a while (Just had a baby that is keeping us rather busy). Anyway, I would humbly submit that you missed one basic type of ornamentation... the octave. Particularly common among those who play in the older style... sometimes they would highlight a note with an octave, sometimes they would play a whole passage... it depends. -- Bill

I would say more a limited exposure than a limited notion. Most of the stuff we get around here are either pub songs, rebel songs or songs nostaligic for Ireland. Not much of the Sean Nos singing or other styles.... Of course, since Sean Nos is usually in Gaelic, for most of us, the actual singing is simply another musical instrument since we aren't likely to know the words. In any case, I am not really complaining about the notion that singing can be traditional, mainly the notion that was originally posted that it is somehow a more authentic tradition, and more worthy to be listened to than the dance music. -- Bill

Yep definitely imflammatory enough! Wally, I hope you laid your fuse to the right powder keg ... Because there are four different kegs. The problem that many Listers don't realise this, being intellectually confined betweeen the ends of their concertinas ... (Is that inflammatory enough for this thread?) The four kegs labelled "Traditional" are: traditional dance music, traditional song, traditional material and traditional performance. Just to keep it imflammatory, let's forget dance music. This is not really music, or at best it is an inferior genre of music. Stands to reason - if it were not inferior, people would stop dancing and listen to it, so it wouldn't be dance music. I could deal with this statement below when you talk about a dull dance recording... but I have to object most strongly where the sentiment is made most strongly. In fact, your statement here is so imflammatory, that it is taking me a great deal of restraint not to tell you exactly what I think about it! Even if the statment is done tongue in cheek, I think it is the biggest bunch of balderdash I have ever heard. Actually my emotional response to music is quite different than yours. The more I want to move when I listen to the music.. either tapping my toe or wanting to get up and dance, the more I like the music. Frankly if the dancable dance music is not worthy of listening to on its own merits, it either is not good dance music or its not performed very well. Tadition is not about words.. I mean words can be part of a tradition, but they are hardly necessary for something to be a tradition. Shoot, in practice verbal traditions seem to be the ones that are most likely to get confused over time. Half of the Americans who are going to celebrate St. Patrick's day next week are going to want to hear "Irish Eyes are Smiling" despite the fact that it wasn't written in Ireland. Again, I think you are missing the connection that dance music can bring to the table here. When I listen to ITM dance music, I feel connected to all my ancestors in the West of Ireland; I can imagine myself sitting next to fireplace, on a cold winter night, in a tiny thatched cottage (like my Dad was born in), playing a tune on the concertina... or at house dance where a couple of musicians on sitting on the kitchen table to make room for a couple of sets, playing, laughing, dancing and drinking into the wee hours of the morning. I feel far more connected to the past of Ireland knowing that music like this has probably been played there for 200 years or more than I do when I listen to yet another song about an Irish man exiled to Australia, or in prison or dead at the hands of the British. Ultimately, tradition is what is passed down over the generations. I took my first steps in playing Irish Music when Dad taught me a few tunes when I was young on his B/C accordion, and 25 years later I would pick it up again to cultivate within me that gift of tradition that my parents gave me. -- Bill

I believe they ended up as Eb, which may help to encourage those Eb crazes we get over here, every now & then. Cheers Dick That is only a half step up... that shouldn't increase the speed all that much. Certainly not enough to take something from a sedate pace of 80 BPM and move it up to 140 BPM or more. -- Bill

I think I would point out that listening for your instrument is a skill that most concertina players need to develop. Like it or not, most of the sound in most concertinas is pointed away from us. Not a big deal when you are playing with a fiddle and a flute, but when you are playing with those plus a banjo, a box, two whistles and two more flutes... well I know it can be hard to hear what you are playing. After a while, I listen for missed notes.. I might not hear what I am playing, but I will hear if I play something that doesn't go with what everyone else is playing (Though this can be tough if you have another guy in the session with a concertina that sounds the same as yours...). One technique I find that helps is making sure you turn your ear toward your instrument. If I hold my head up looking forward, I rarely hear what I play in a full session... but if I turn my head to the side and tip an ear towards the instrument, it gets a lot easier to hear. -- Bill

Here is my humble opinion on the whole issue.... It depends. Mostly it depends on the context in which which the person is playing. If you are playing in a traditional music session or playing for dancers, then your innovation should well be tempered by the context you are playing in. the tune should remain recognizable and any innovation that is added should blend well with the basic tune. If you are playing solo, or in a concert with other musicians, then as far as I am concerned, you are free to do what you want with the tune, just as long as I am free to walk out if I find the result to be less than thrilling. I would also point out that not liking an arrangement of a dance tune because it has taken all the dancability out of the tune is critiquing it on artistic grounds as far as I am concerned. I personally believe that traditional dance music (regardless of genre or nationality) is some of the most engaging music going. It does little service to the music, from a listening perspective if that engagement is removed because someone thought it would be fun to mess with the time signature, or whatever. -- Bill

Grossly. I'm sorry, but to me that is near the peak of session rudeness. To my mind the person who starts a tune (and in this case they were invited to start the tune) sets the speed and that's an end of it. Whether you reckon it's too slow or too fast it is ill-manered to take it over in that way. Selah. Chris I must admit I was middle ground on that one... but you're right, good "gentlemen" would have kept the slow speed, these guys were definitely rude. I remember many years ago in Miltown Malbay when I was still a beginner on whistle I sat with a few advanced players and they asked me to play a tune and they did follow me, even though my version of a tune was a bit weird. Anyhow, it's still always a risk you're taking, when sitting with unknown people of much higher skills than you. I think we need to keep in mind that none of us know the full story here. Just because the tune got fast, it doesn't mean it was pushed there by the heavy hitters... Sometimes its the intermediate players who push it there without ever realizing it. I know there is a box player at the session I know, and if she knows a tune, she will, without intending too, push it faster each time through and then complain at the end because the tempo speed up so much. The only time she doesn't do it is when there is a dominant instrument in the session (usually our Banjo player, but sometimes another box player). == Bill