ritonmousquetaire

Of course, I guess you don't feel any limits with your 88-keys duet! But when playing on your 57-keys Maccann, you have to find a way to get around them - or do you keep the direct adaptation of keyboard music for your bigger instruments? I haven't checked the sheet music, but you're probably right about Bach; when playing his music on piano the music rarely - if ever - goes below the second C below middle C. As for Rameau, I know of at least one case where the B below that C has to be played : it's in his Rappel des Oiseaux - one of my favorite pieces on the harpsichord -, in a passage where the descending bass is played in octaves. Have you ever played Rameau's music on the concertina? I'd be curious to hear some records if you have any!

No need to apologize! I found our discussion in the other thread very interesting and thought that this specific point - the overlap - deserved a thread on its own. The ability to play baroque directly from sheet music on a concertina is sort of the ideal thing to me - I get that an overlap is necessary to reach that goal, considering that on a piano keyboard, the hands are not strictly limited to one side or another. Indeed, having a large overlap naturally offers the players more possibilities, and, as you said, reduce the need to arrange. But on small instruments - the 46-keys Hayden layout for instance -, to what extent should the overlap be prioritized over the range? Isn't not being able to play notes below C3 a greater problem when playing directly from sheet music than not being able to play relatively high notes with the left hand? I get that larger instruments can have both the range and the overlap, but I feel - and that's pure feeling here, I don't have playing experience to back it up, hence this thread - that when having to choose between them, having a larger range - especially in the bass - would allow the player to have less work to do on adapting the lower staff of a regular piano sheet music. Yet on most duets the overlap was chosen over the range, and I still struggle to understand why this was the case, especially on small instruments. In your experience, when playing from sheet music, how do you handle the notes that are too low for your instrument?

Hello everybody, in another thread we had a short discussion about the overlap on the duets - I'm always surprised to see how even in small instruments with not many buttons the builders seem to favor the overlap over the range. Looking at the layout of a Stagi 46-keys Hayden concertina [ archive for previous link if it doesn't work] for instance, one can see that both hands share almost a complete octave. While the presence of an overlap is of course understandable - user ocd gave a good explanation here, I have the feeling here that increasing the range of the instrument - which in this case doesn't even have three fully chromatic octaves - should get the priority over the ability to play "high" notes with the left hand. Of course a small overlap is necessary, but in this case, where the instrument is limited in the bass to the C below middle C, is it really a priority for the user to be able to play such a high note as B4 with the left hand? Wouldn't it be better for the left hand to start a little bit lower, say at G2, so the overlap is still present - yet in a reduced form - and to keep a larger overlap for the larger versions of the instrument? I'd be curious to hear the opinion of duet players on the matter. Would you prefer a larger range for your instruments, or do you feel that a large overlap is a better option?

Alex Holden > Thanks for the link! So with this mention and Little John's post here, it seems that this double-decker technique was definitely used, though it was probably rare. Little John > Interesting! Do you have any pictures of that instruments? How does the double-decker reeds impact the sound - if they do? ocd > Yeah, on a small instrument I guess it's either the range or the overlap - both have their utility I guess... It seems that most duets favored the overlap, while the opposite way was chosen for the anglo (the overlap - on the 20-keys version of the anglo at least - is present but very limited in range; on the other side the extreme notes of the instrument are almost 4 octaves apart).

Right, I hadn't really thought about that. I didn't know about these "double decker" reed pans, do you have any pictures of such instruments available on the internet to look at? Only 4 reeds - I don't know why, but I thought the difference would have been bigger! Yet without any overlap, such an instrument could theoretically only use 49 keys... but the lack of an overlap might be a problem for the player. Did anybody ever try to create a layout that would keep the notes on both sides like the english, but in a manner that would make "duet-style" playing easier?

5 octaves - that's as much as a reed-organ or a spinet; the ideal range to me. I guess you don't ever feel any limit when playing this instrument! The only thing is, these duets, judging from the photos in the thread that Wolf posted - thanks Wolf! -, seem to be huge! You lose - sort of - the "small instrument" vibe that you can get with a 56 keys (four octaves) EC... I wish there were more small-sized, four-octaves duets available. The only ones I know of are the ones built by Wim Wakker, but they are very expensive.

ocd > Thanks for your answer! A 88-keys Maccann, wow, that must be quite a beast! I wasn't even aware that such instruments had been built in the past. May I ask you out of curiosity what its total range is?

Thanks a lot for uploading this! A very interesting book for sure.

Hello everyone, I was looking at Regondi's compositions for the english concertina (notably at the music available on Ivano Paterno's excellent website (click here if the previous link doesn't work) and on Danny Chapman's page ) and started to wonder : Regondi was considered as one of the best composers and arrangers for the EC. Considering that he set a good example of what was technically doable on the EC (and that he did compose some lovely music - the 1st and 4th parts of his Hexameron come to mind), did anybody try to attain a similar level of virtuosity on the duet? For instance, - are you aware of any player who tried to play Regondi's music on the duet - as written or in an arranged form (which would often be necessary I guess, since most duets surprisingly don't seem to have a range at least as large as the one of a basic EC)? - Did some duet players try to use Regondi's EC arranging techniques - his use of a fast counter-melody played simultaneously with the melody, as in the Hexameron (1st and 4th part) or his arrangement of Home sweet home (from his Recollections from Home)? Do you know of such duets arrangements that were ever published? - In a broader way, who in your opinion is the Regondi of the duet (regardless of the duet type)? Are there any methods available for instance that go as far in the exploration of what is feasible with the instrument as Regondi's New Method and his Rudimenti del Concertinista? I have seen some tutors that were quite good, such as Rutterford's one for the Maccann system , yet I wouldn't consider it as elaborate as Regondi's. Curious to hear about your thoughts on the subject! Best, RM

Thanks! Do you have by any chance a version with notes on staff or something like that?

This guy is a good player, and makes some of the best arrangements for the 20 buttons anglo out there, with a nice, full sound. I tend to play in a similar style - I would have loved to have such a page available a few years ago. It's a good synthesis, and I like the fact that he shows the player what notes are available on the push and on the pull separately - understanding the instrument as having two keyboards (one on the push and one on the pull) is key to progress.

34cm wide, quite a monster! I'd be curious to see a keychart...

It seems so, the layouts are quite different. But in capable hands the chemnitzer sounds as good as the accordion - it seems that most of the technical traits that are heard on typical accordion arrangements are possible to play on the chemnitzer, despite it using only 52 buttons. Here are a few examples : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFBf1casShs, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTvRaQQ9Y-Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiqyJTYvv1c . There are various concertina types having sometimes more than 52 buttons (some ECs, some duets - maybe a few rare anglos), but I haven't seen the same level of playing technique achieved on them yet (with a few exceptions). That makes me think that the chemnitzer layout is efficient, but it may also simply be linked to the fact that this kind of accordion-style arrangements aren't really popular among the players of other types of concertinas.

I guess there aren't many people out there who have knowledge of so many different systems! May I ask you which one you found to be the most effective in terms of achievable complexity? (not sure I'm very clear here, please tell me if it's not correct). I'm especially curious to hear how the Chemnitzer compares with the various monosonoric systems; there are a lot of videos featuring impressive arrangements played on it, which is quite interesting considering that it only has 52 buttons...

soloduetconcertina > Yes, I'm living in Paris. We can try that !

Seems you're progressing quite fast. I'm personally more inclined toward harmonic playing on the anglo, so I found it nice that you're experimenting with it - with a nice result - in your last video (the carol one). Are you playing by ear or using some methods or sheet music?

Yes, though it seems to my ears that what he plays here could theoretically be played on a concertina (though I don't play the EC so my opinion isn't well grounded), the sound here seems different - yet, as you say, it's also different from the accordion sound we can hear in the other videos of the same song I posted. I'll try to transcribe what is played to see if it's achievable on the EC.

ceemonster > I can get that posting videos on the net may seem difficult. Is that the recording aspect you're struggling with, or rather the recording process? Also, thanks a lot for this very detailed post on your tango references! I have to say that tango is a genre I'm not familiar with at all, so all of these names are new to me - I've started to listen to Conversando con el Fueye album and it really sounds good! I'll also check the other names you pointed out. It's interesting to see that your approach to the free-reed instruments is so well documented (I'm not sure if what I'm saying here is understandable, hope I'm clear enough). Here are the links for the tangos you mentioned in your last post : Tango on alto-aeola : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUISk2Qx7rA- quite impressive! I wish we'd see that sort of playing on the english more often! Polish tango : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-25V6h9iNlQ _____________________________ soloduetconcertina > I listened to your recording of La Partida and first of all, congratulations for that very nice interpretation! I love it when waltzes are played like that, in that very fluid and expressive way. I get what you're saying about it sounding musette - it's not exactly the french musette mood, but it's quite close to it technically speaking. Considering the nice result you got here, I'm pretty sure you could play some great french musette on your concertina! Almost nobody tries it on this instrument unfortunately. I also wanted to ask you a question about the number of buttons your instrument have : do you feel the whole 52 buttons are necessary to your playing, or does a 46 instrument could be enough to play without feeling limitations? And about that mini-tango band with concertina and ukulele, the idea seems quite fun! I'm unfortunately not a very good ukulele player and have 0 tango culture, but could give you a hand if you can't find a good player for it lol

https://youtu.be/cwwQ5Rr1lHo and internal view is here https://youtu.be/pL5kqs0OhLg . Thanks for the link! Though it's not that much of a change as what as I hoped for, it's still noticeable and brings a joyful quality to the piece. It'd sure be nice to be able to get that ability to switch to a more accordion-like sound more frequently on anglos! Too bad these instruments seem to be rare.

I'd love to hear how such a concertina sounds. I'd love to have this possibility to activate a 2nd voice on my 20-buttons anglo.

Pavel Rudakov (Павел Рудаков - 1915-1993) was a Russian english concertina player. He was mentioned on this forum in a previous thread on russian players : http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=13811&hl=rudakov If I'm creating this new topic, it's because I noticed that many of his records originally published as 78 rpm discs are available online on the Russian Records website. I can't provide a direct link, but you just have to search for his name here : http://www.russian-records.com/search.php Here are a few examples : http://www.russian-records.com/details.php?image_id=18163 http://www.russian-records.com/details.php?image_id=14813 http://www.russian-records.com/details.php?image_id=42446 All of these records seem to date from the 50s. It's usually comical songs with short concertina breaks, no solo instrumentals here. There are also a few sides from other players on this website, it's a good resource (this one for instance : http://www.russian-records.com/details.php?image_id=25596 ) Concerning Rudakov, there's a video in particular about which I'd like to hear your opinion. It's this one : https://youtu.be/tmDkrZ9fhQE?t=41sIt's a video here, but it can also be found here : http://www.russian-records.com/details.php?image_id=19986 in awful quality (from a strange looking disc - an acetate maybe?). The concertina work here is so good that I'm wondering if it's really Rudakov's playing that we hear here. Sure, he played in a similar style in other videos (using arpeggios etc), but the sound he got from his concertina wasn't always that good. To give more context, it seems this song is a parody of this one : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuRfS21n5ag(the singer here, Tamara Strelkova (Тамара Стрелкова), seems to appear in the video of Rudakov's version). Could it be that what we hear is just an accordionist's right hand playing off-screen? Just a supposition. So, does any EC player can answer to this? Is what Rudakov seeming to play actually playable on the EC? Is it compatible with the movement of his hands? I should maybe try to transcribe what we hear in that video, it would make it easier to compare. Somehow I hope that it's really a concertina that we're hearing here, but it almost sounds too good to be true.

https://youtu.be/CDH5NO1mT7k?t=2m36sHere is the link to the video you mentioned. Will you post a video of your version on the forum? I'd be curious to hear what you came up with on the EC. Will you try to maintain the oom-pah-pah bass?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fhe3MIN_4o&feature=youtu.be&t=2m57sIn this clip you can hear his accompanist Hervé Guido playing the melody part of the arrangement. It seems this piece was their main one on the concertina.

Daniel Hersh > Thanks for the link! I haven't searched for more clips of him playing the concertina yet but it seems, according to this discussion, that they aren't that frequent. I'll try to see if I can locate more. soloduetconcertina > Glad to see you like it. I didn't try to play it yet on my anglo (I can play it on a ukulele though lol), but it's in my plans - I'd need to transcribe it first and then see if I can make an adaptation. I'd be very curious to hear what you could get on your hayden duet! I'm sure you could make it sound great!

A nice clip of french humourist Raymond Devos playing a tune by George Brassens, La Marine, in a duo setting (his accompanist playing the second concertina) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_R9vdUBC-M The tune is quite melancholic, it fits the concertina's sound very well in my opinion. Does anybody know of similar pieces played in that style on the concertina?