frogspawn

I like the new look of the forum but I'm currently accessing it on an Android device because McAfee SiteAdviser on my PC is blocking access on the grounds that it is unsafe...

I minimise 'out-of-column' fingering as much as possible. If moving a 4th interval in the fourth column on the right-hand I use my 3rd and 4th fingers. As I mainly play in C and G these fingers get a lot of use. If moving a 4th interval in the second or third columns, I usually use the same finger to slide down a 4th, but always use different fingers when going up a 4th. Whether I use the in-column or out-of-column finger first depends on the situation.

Malcolm Ward

I'm now into my second 'vanity case'. Both were purchased in charity shops. They are often originally produced as part of a matching set of suitcases. To buy new they are quite expensive, but only £3-£5 second-hand. The case is semi-hard and lined with 'envelopes' of teddy-bear fur (from a haberdashery) stuffed with bubble-wrap. These will be reused if/when the case wears out. The case has a shoulder-strap which makes me feel more secure as my big fear is leaving the 'tina behind somewhere. I've only once been asked if it contains make-up!

I have a duet but for folk song accompaniment I personally believe this is the way to go whatever system you play. It's not the way I play at the moment, but it's the way I aspire to play.

Since November I've lost a bit of weight - about 23 lbs. (This was to become more healthy, not because I'm ill.) Just recently I've got the feeling that my fingertips are less well padded and now feel a bit bony when I press the buttons. Has anyone else had this experience?

Thanks very much to Alan for posting the recordings and to everyone for their thoughtful responses. There are a lot of interesting ideas here which I will follow up, but there is not a lot you can do when you are completely overwhelmed by a much louder instrument. I have also experienced the situation of not being able to hear myself but sensing that other people can hear me when, as a result, I hit wrong notes! There are obviously ways of improving volume and speed, but there is usually a trade off between the two. Richard

Thanks for the responses! Ralph I also have a 70-button metal-ended Wheatstone Aeola. It's less convenient so I don't use it much. The tone is a little shriller but not really louder. I will experiment further... Alan I am only playing melody when I do tunes. Would you be kind enough to explain "base line runs" or refer me to an explanation? Gerry The Crane is essentially designed for playing chords on the left and melody on the right and for that it is highly logical and excellent. As duets are unisonoric, this gives you three melody notes under your right-hand fingers at any given time. On an English, where the scale is split between the left and right hands, you are using both hands and have six notes available if you use three fingers on each hand. On the Anglo, with the same number of fingers, you have twelve notes available, all without moving the position of your fingers. This is a simplification but it seems to me to be the basic reason why the Crane is relatively slow. I've never played a MacCann, but I get the impression from the layout that it assumes use of four fingers which may give it a slight advantage over the Crane. Richard

Last year I made some progress with using my Crane duet for song accompaniment, which is why I bought it in the first place, and that's what I'm going to focus on in the future. Prior to that I spent three years learning English folk dance tunes, but I've now reluctantly come to accept that a Crane isn't suited to a session environment. I'm not going to get much faster and the 'tina certainly isn't going to get any louder. It may be that I could play at a realistic dance speed, but I certainly can't play at typical session speed. As to volume, it's not that I want to dominate – I'd just like to be able to hear myself which is virtually impossible without holding the Crane up to an ear or going to the back of the room. I know that being able to hear oneself does improve with time, but I've seen other very accomplished concertina players having the same problem. I also realise that extra volume can be leveraged on a duet by playing in parallel octaves, but playing melody with the left-hand creates a further speed handicap. More obviously, I could avoid situations where I have to compete with loud instruments, but that is easier said than done! As is well-known, the Anglo and the English are faster and I've certainly heard Anglos that are much louder, so I would advise anyone who wants to play a concertina in sessions to avoid the Crane. It's too late for me to change system again now, and the Crane fulfils its main purpose so I'm happy with that. If I ever do want to get into instrumental sessions I think I'll try melodeon, mandolin or whistle which have volume and/or sound qualities that can cut through, and they can all be played much faster than the Crane. Richard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHPUlp4rgas

The museum certainly betrays its roots as a Victorian collection of curios. The most modern gallery is probably the aquarium, which is small but well-done. There is also an attractive conservatory like a miniature Crystal Palace which is used as a tea house. Unfortunately it was too wet to walk the gardens, so we're planning another visit in the spring.

Yesterday I made a pilgrimage to the Horniman Museum in south London to see their concertina collection. It's a pleasant environment (except for the small children running about the galleries uncontrolled by their parents and IMO some rather unpleasant atonal/discordant music coming from a free concert in the 'Gallery Square'). Anyway, there aren't that many concertinas on display in comparison with those listed and illustrated on the museum's website, but it's still good to see them 'in the flesh'. There are also a lot of other musical instruments there that may be of interest. That only a proportion of their collection is actually displayed is understandable and presumably not unusual. What really disappointed me, however, was the poor signage. A combination of dim light, distance, font size and the thickness of the glass conspired to make the signs very difficult or even impossible to read for someone of my age. I fully appreciate that artefacts need to be protected, but the signage should be larger, further forward or illuminated as it is in other parts of the museum. I did fill in the feedback form about this and also expressed my disappointment to a young girl who was conducting a visitor survey - she also had difficulty reading some of the signs.

May I recommend the Android gstrings tuning app? It will measure the frequency of an incoming sound (not just display, say, "C#") and it will play selected pitches - though not very loudly on my HTC Desire. It's useful to me because I do dabble with some stringed instruments. I also like to check the pitch of a new song before shoe-horning it into a concertina key I can actually play.

Steve I fear my response was over-defensive and thus may have added to this impression. I apologise. I know Dick has been involved in some lively controversies, including the one that led to him being banned, and I was a little fearful that I had inadvertently started a flame war. I now fully accept that your response was entirely innocent. Feeling a little more relaxed about this now, I feel able to reveal (if I understood it correctly) a 'trick' whereby he combined chords and melody by playing the melody on the offbeat. This was in response to a question I asked about how exactly melody and chords are combined on an English. He also seems to use a lot of other subtle tricks such as momentary 'colourings' using sixths and ninths. Adding a sixth on a Crane would normally require holding down two buttons with one finger. I don't think ninths would be possible unless using both sides. It did occur to me that it would be possible, where the ranges overlap, to play a Crane like an English, i.e. playing a scale alternately on the two sides. I haven't tried it but I suppose it could potentially provide more fingers and thus more speed for tunes. However, it would be very eccentric and non-intuitive. Playing melody on the right and chords on the left is the most obvious thing to do on a duet. Richard

You can't do it on an English, but you can do it on an Anglo - that's the whole idea behind "English style" (aka harmonic style or duet style) Anglo playing. The question of whether one is better off doing this on an Anglo or duet is of course a different issue. I personally lean slightly toward duet at the moment. I'm aware of this. The problem with a 'typical' Anglo is (1) keeping the melody entirely on the right and (2) finding alternative right-hand buttons to fit the direction of the chords unless you take the Kimber approach analysed in Dan's book. In other words, there is a degree of challenging interaction between melody and accompaniment that doesn't occur on duets. Of course, all the systems are compromises and have their strengths and weaknesses.

Interesting - I wasn't aware that Dick played the duet. What did he specifically point to that you can 'just play' on a duet where you have to 'work all sort of tricks' on an EC? I wasn't suggesting he played a duet. He is entitled to compare the systems even if he doesn't. The words "work all sorts of tricks" were entirely mine and a product of the impression I got. As far as I can remember he did say "just play what you want" or words to that effect. I posted this in good faith but I'm a bit dubious about responding further as Dick himself is currently unable to confirm, deny or expand on the subject. To put it simply, and entirely in my own words, you can on a duet play a melody on the right and, entirely separately as it were, play chords or some other accompaniment on the left without any direct interaction. Perhaps someone else could express this more elegantly, but I trust you get the meaning. Obviously, this is not the case with other systems for reasons we are all familiar with.

I've just got back from Tenterden Folk Festival at which I had the pleasure of attending an excellent workshop on the English concertina run by Dick Miles. Dick explained in great detail how he achieves the various styles in which he plays. As Dick himself said, you have to work all sorts of tricks on an English to achieve certain things, whilst on a duet you can "just play what you want". This has confirmed for me that the Crane was the right choice for me for song accompaniment, but I still think it is inferior for tunes because of the speed issue.

My first concertina was a very limited Anglo. For the past few years I've been trying to learn to play a Crane, but I do sometimes wonder if switching to the English would have been a better choice. The type of music one wants to play is pretty fundamental. If I was going to play instrumental ITM I would get a C/G Anglo and that would be the end of the matter. If I wanted to play in English sessions I'd get a very loud G/D Anglo, or, perhaps, a melodeon so I wasn't drowned out! However, as song accompaniment is my main interest, the duet and the English are the ones in the running as far as I am concerned. I think the Crane can do everything the English can do and a bit more, but it is not as fast and when I do want to use it for instrumental tunes I find it very difficult to keep up with normal session speed.

Geoff Doel founded the club in 1979 but I lived in Tonbridge for some time before discovering it. Such was life before Google.

It was good if unexpected to see Alan and Mike at Tonbridge (http://www.tonbridgefolkclub.org). Many years ago I often used to go and listen to the sessions at the George in Southwark where Alan is a regular. We have three regulars who play concertina: Malcolm Ward (McCann), Angela Baker (English), and now myself (Crane) which I have just started to use for song accompaniment in public as mentioned in another thread. Angie most often plays as a duet with her husband, Colin, on guitar. Malcolm is also a great shanty singer. Obviously we would be very pleased to see any other C.net contributors. Richard

I have a few whaling and hunting songs, but my main interest is in sea songs generally and songs with military connections. The latter have all sorts of perspectives (bombastic, anti-war and simply fatalistic - which I regard as the most authentic). I don't take sides...

Mike Thanks for your comments on and off board. The songs were 'Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy', 'Bogie's Bonnie Belle', 'The Rout of the Blues' and 'The Sweet Kumadie' (The Golden Vanity). I adopted the first two after studying them in Dick Miles' English tutor. Although not directly applicable to the duet or the way I play, I found it quite inspiring. Richard

Last Thursday I sang four songs with concertina accompaniment in a singaround session. It wasn't perfect but I got away with it. This is the first time I've pulled it off. Two previous attempts ended in total disaster. I've had the concertina for three years. If I'd known then what I know now I could probably have accelerated the process. In my case what I needed to learn was as follows: (1) A technique that I could apply. (2) An understanding and feel for chords. (3) The best key(s) for my singing voice. (4) A minimum of five hours practice a week. I've only achieved these very recently (a few months ago), but since doing so progress has been phenominally more rapid. As a Crane owner I'm essentially self-taught, but I'm very grateful for the advice I've received here. Richard

I can't check the actual CDs for concertina content just at the moment, but I have quite a few recordings by A L Lloyd and Lou Killen on CD: For Lloyd I have: Leviathan England & Her Traditional Songs Ten Thousand Miles Away English Drinking Songs Blow Boys Blow (with Ewan MacColl) A quick check on the web suggests all these feature at least some playing by Alf Edwards. For Lou Killen I have: Sailors, Ships & Chanteys Vols I and II A Bonny Bunch Rose in June They are two of my favourite singers. Richard

The development of my (English) folksong accompaniment skills has been a long and tortuous process, but in comparison to previous years I feel I've recently made some significant progress, mainly due to more practice time and some very useful help with finding my right singing/playing keys. I still am and still feel like a beginner. I didn't previously have any sense of harmony, and chords alone tended to throw me off the melody. I also found left-right co-ordination more challenging than I did on the guitar or melodeon. Accordingly, I've developed an approach which basically consists of playing the melody on the right-hand while stabbing with triad chords on the left, either to emphasise notes in the melody, or just rhythmically depending on the nature of the song. Thanks to all the very valuable discussion and help here, some workshops on accompaniment in general that I've attended, and the recent comments of a friend, I am fairly well convinced that the key to really good concertina accompaniment is actually to be sparse, e.g. suggesting a tune rather than playing it note-for-note and putting in all the 'twiddly' bits. My point, and I'm looking for corroboration here, is that it is difficult for a beginner to jump from nothing to such an accomplished style of accompaniment, and that it's actually a good idea to play a full accompaniment to begin with and then to gradually relax and elaborate this to achieve a style that is at the same time both more skeletal and more decorated. Does this make sense to anyone else? Richard