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Everything posted by 4to5to6
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The 6 bolts around the perimeter are for adjusting the three chasers and the 6 bolts on the face will then clamp the chasers into place. I’ll use an existing 5BA 0.086 bolt as a starting place with all parts in the lathe for correct center alignment. This should be a good starting place then will tweak it to get it perfect. I’ll find out today. .
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Finished tool as planned but no time to set it up and make a bolt today. I’ll get back to it by the weekend… All this for a few 2.25” long Wheatstone bolts for a single action G Bass. It’s worth it, he’s a friend. The hardest part was tapping the tiny M2-0.40 threads for the 6 adjustment screws and the 6 clamping cover screws. All I have is forming taps at this size and they easily break if the pilot hole isn’t perfect. An exercise in patience. The back shaft is held loosely in the tail stock’s Jacobs chuck to keep it in alignment. This shaft is hollow for the first 90mm to not interfere with the threading. .
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Just completed the design and generated the first CNC tool path. I will machine the holder from both sides then finish it on the lathe. It will take a few hours of fabricating after machining as a lot of very small holes need to be drilled and taped. The end result will be an adjustable 5BA die that was cut into three pieces so the diameter can be reduced down to 0.086 (8BA). 6 bolts will align and adjust the depth of cut using an existing bolt as a guide and the cover plate will clamp everything into place after it has been set up. The two handles will used to turn the die with the bolt blank held in the locked lathe chuck. The center slider shaft will slide into a tail stock drill chuck loosely held or maybe a pipe ??? on the lathe for alignment so threads will cut straight. I'll upload photos of the finished die holder and some sample end bolts when completed. I'm using AutoCAD to generate the vector files and VCarve to generated the tool paths. My CNC machine is a highly modified Bravo Prodigy with an 800 watt water cooled spindle and my lathe is an EMCO Compact 5 also with many do-it-yourself upgrades. Material will be 6061 aluminum 1" thick and 1.75" wide. This is a quick functional layout only drawing so a lot of the details such as the drilled hole in the slider shaft aren't shown. Everything may change after I have thought about it over night but I think this will get the job done. .
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I think these were all manufactured to 86 thou but perhaps the tolerance was + or - one thou, my reason is the original receipt Wheatstone had from the company said "8ba shank 5ba thread or something like that. 5 ba is 43 tpi, perhaps the 44 one was just that the lathe was a bit worn or something, it seems a bit weird to change the spec by 1 tpi when actually the 43 or 44 tpi bolt would be most likely interchangeable if the bellows frame nut is only 80 thou thick. Steve Dickinson sells these bolts but I'm not sure what lengths he has. Thanks for confirming the specs Jake. Much, much, much appreciated!!! My original post was to enquire if this special die (0.086” 43TPI, 5BA/8BA) was still available. It sounds like I will have to custom make my own. All the discussion and advice was greatly appreciated. .
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I just found these: Uxcell M2.5 X 40mm 304 Stainless Steel Crosshead Phillips Round Head Screws Bolt - 60pcs - $10.91 USD https://www.harfington.com/products/p-1102106 Is 60mm long possible? Almost there 😊 Reference: C. 1900 hex bass - 0.0855, 44tpi, 2.218“ (56.4mm) 1926 Amboyna TT Aeola - 0.0850 5BA thread, 1.240” (31.5mm) 1927 ME TT Aeola - 0.0860 5BA thread, 1.162“ (29.5mm) .
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I have yet to find a source for 3-48 bolts and M2.5 x 30, etc. bolts over 1” (25mm) preferably in North America as alternate end bolts. Cheese, fillister or binder head with a slot drive preferred. I am open to Whitworth and BA as well even in a finer thread than 43tpi. Custom made bolts are very expensive so would then have to make my own if not available. It would be awesome to get these off the shelf to save time and money. On this topic… I also have a need for the small 3/8” screws that hold rolled metal end plates on from the inside. I’ll attach a photo. And of course the long thin English thumb strap and pinky rest screws… these also are also impossible to find new. Does anyone know of a source for brand new bolts and screws like these?
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A source for new bolts would be appreciated. Preferable a North American source but anywhere is fine. C. 1900 bass - 0.0855, 44tpi, 2.218“ 1926 Amboyna TT - 0.0850 5BA, 1.240” 1927 ME TT - 0.0860 5BA, 1.162“ Thanks.
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How many concertinas have you owned/tried?
4to5to6 replied to LR71's topic in General Concertina Discussion
Good advice… the search for the perfect instrument can be endless… I can say this… it is more impressive to be a great player on a mediocre instrument than a poor player on an amazing instrument. Also, concertinas are funny in how they sound and play better and better the more that they are played. . -
I found Geoff’s post: Interesting stuff.
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Thanks Alex. The Swiss Thurly standard explanation helps me with the Louis Lachenal reference. It was off the cuff but maybe that’s where I got the connection from as I understand he was a Swiss Engineer and screw maker. The time line is off as Stephen pointed out but practices are often put into place years before they become official standards. Is it not true that a feature of the BA thread is the rounded crest and root versus the sharper peaks and valleys of SAE and metric threads? .
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Thanks Stephen. I greatly appreciate your help. And thanks for the push as usual and please forgive my impatience. I’ll search for Geoff’s thread (pun intended) on concertina bolts. He’s a highly respected craftsman and instrument builder who has set me straight countless times. I wait to be humbled again. I have a container full of spare bolts and bolt plates but often don’t have the one that fits. Actually, most of the time. There was certainly no standard, especially in the early instruments. I will check again but was quite convinced for this one that I was after the 5BA thread / 8BA shaft combo. As stated in the OP, I was just enquiring to see if this threading die was commonly available somewhere in the world. I will dig deeper… I just checked and have the metric & America SAE type & British Whitworth & BA pitch gauges as well as a simple tpi gauge and will use my very nice Mitutoyo digital calliper to get the shaft sizes. I still absolutely love your former 31xxx Amboyna TT. Wow! What a joy to play. Possibly the best concertina ever made although I am sure these can be fighting words. All I know is that there is music I can only play on this instrument although also love my mint condition 1856 treble who’s serial is sandwiched between a Blagrove and Regondi purchase. I’m sure that I’m not alone in this but have reversed engineered countless concertinas trying to come up with the perfect reed scale myself and this Amboyna TT still tops the list in both design and craftmanship. The spread sheet curves don’t lie and back me up. I’m actually currently measuring the reeds on my 1922 G to G, 56 button model 14 as I am thinking of selling it and the reeds are near perfect as well. Only half way done so haven’t seen the curves yet. Steve Dickinson did an absolute perfect job of setting up air flows, voicing the reeds, sizing valves etc. etc. on the Amboyna TT. Let’s please put this on hold for a few days until I get some time to do some reading and take some measurements. I already split apart my 5BA die… It broke while trying to squeeze it down to size but I hope to turn lemons in lemonade so broke it again and started designing an adjustsble holder which I will soon CNC out. I just checked a piece of the 5BA die with a bolt out of the large single action Wheststone bass, circa 1900 and the 5BA 43 tpi is a match. Okay, okay… my wife is mad but I just dug out my tools and took the end bolts out to measured them: C. 1900 SA bass - 0.0855, 44tpi closest 1926 Amboyna TT - 0.0850 5BA closest 1927 ME TT - 0.0860 5BA closest Although 44tpi, the bass bolt easily threads into both the 1926 and 1927 Aeolas by hand. Overall bolt lengths are 2.218, 1.240, 1.162 inches respectively. Interesting enough, my SAE thread gauge jumps from 42 to 44 tpi. I’m trusting that my 5BA gauge and broken die are 43 tpi. Maybe Jake can jump in here and come to my rescue. 😉 I’ve already had emails from both Steve and Jake but not sure what is proprietary info. The true test will happen when I make the bolts with the die and also single point on the lathe. Okay… I must go and put the end bolts back in and beg forgiveness from my wife.
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Sounds like the only way to get this die is to custom make it. Thanks everyone for your feedback.
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Stephen… I stand corrected. Indeed BA threads were standardized after Louis Lachenal’s days although BA threads have a strong metric influence long before the metric standardization so I presumed the Swiss influence. Then again, that’s only 23 years difference so the threads could have been around before the standardization. Bolts! Threads! Standardization. It’s like discussing A440 versus A453 Philharmonic pitch. I’m more interested in how to get this job done then the history.
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Adrian… Wow! Very impressive. The idea of making a tap and die crossed my mind but I don’t have acetylene so annealing/tempering would be difficult. If the adjustable die doesn't work, I’ll have to go this way. The BA threads are very rounded off at the peaks and valleys. “sinusoidal” is a good way to describe them. Clive… These bolts are not rolled. The thread OD is the same size as the shaft.
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Measurements were made with a digital caliper and a set of pitch gauges. I am sure they are accurate. 5BA is 0.126 and 43 tpi. 8BA is 0.086 from the chart so “5BA threads on a 8BA shaft”. We’ll have to go back in time and ask Swiss engineer Mr. Louis Lachenal why he chose this particular thread. They seem to have stood the test of time. I’m going to butcher a 5BA die by cutting it into three pieces then make a special holder so I can adjust these down to 8BA. Necessity is the mother of invention?!?!?! Wish me luck 😂 .
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Does anyone have a source for a 43 tpi die, that cuts a 0.081 outer thread diameter on a 0.088 shaft? Overall total bolt length is 2.22 inches. I was told these are 5BA threads on a smaller 8BA shaft if this helps. I have offered to build a few end bolts for a large bass to help someone out. Thanks . Note: Actual specs are 43TPI on a 0.086 shaft - see page 3
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Wow! Very nice concertina. I hope you will keep it and play it.. I love the mellow but clear sound of these early steel reeded instruments. A pleasure to play late in the evening. Sure, it doesn’t have the long scale reeds like the newer (100 year old) Aeolas but Regondi / Blagrove / Case used them and no one today that I know of can play anywhere close to the way these gentlemen did. I have a similar 1856 12.12 in mint condition previously owned by the Bulteel family (serial number sandwiched between a Regondi and a Blagrove purchase) that is one of my most prized instruments. Looks like a very fine vintage instrument. A work of art! Condition the bellows with some sparingly use of Connolly Hide Care on the gussets and hinges so they don’t crack. Wonderful! 700 to 2500 USD resale value depending on how it plays and level of restoration.
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F Tenor conversion - Why D# to Db?
4to5to6 replied to 4to5to6's topic in Instrument Construction & Repair
Only somewhat true. Agree... All true trebles (treble, model 14 baritone treble, model 19 tenor treble, also G Bass) have the middle C on the LH compared to a true baritone (also piccolo) with the middle C on the RH side). Disagree… The C is not always centred with the thumb strap on tenors and can be shifted up or down a row as the two tenors shown in the photos above demonstrate. All of my trebles and tenor trebles have the LH middle C centred on the thumb strap. My Lachenal baritone has the C lined up with the middle of the LH thumb strap as well but this is not a set in stone rule especially for extended range trebles. My model 14 BT has the buttons shifted up a row. This is a rare model (a purple unicorn) but Geoff Woof has the same one, with the same layout, so I know it was designed this way. His has an extra long pinky slide by the way to make it more interesting. I don’t use the pinky slide as I follow the early (Blagrove) method of one finger per row so not sure how this affects things. Not completely sure why the shift up or down of middle C row, thumb straps / button position on the instrument / extra long pinky slides, etc. all in regards to the centre line and to each other but it is possible that the physical balance of the instrument while playing standing up was the determining factor in all of this. . -
Thank you. I am extremely priveledged and constantly feel honored to have a 31xxx 1926 Amboyna, gold fittings TT Aeola under my care. It took me 10 years to find such an instrument and have had it for about a year now. It is in near mint condition with only some minor honest playing wear, clean inside and out and never abused. In all the reed scale studies I have done on various Whearstone tenor trebles, this one is as close to perfect as they come. The reed gap clearance workmanship and scaling curve design are near perfect. It was already restored when Steve got it a few years ago but he restored it again. The setup and voicing he did is amazing and you can tell when playing it. Superior responsiveness, dynamics, balance and expression first come to mind. I can play music on this Aeola that I can’t on any other. It is a joy to play. And it looks awesome too 😊. I hope the one you are building with him turns out just as good. I am sure it will. .
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Wow! Is this like a Sid Watkins -> Steve Dickinson -> Jake Middleton-Metcalfe kind of thing? Steve is so amazing and knowledgeable. I’ve learned do much from him myself… thread pitch for a concertina bolt, why only chambers on the inside, chamber harmonic dampening, tuning, reed profiles, reed scaling, button height, wood selection… more and more and more. What a privilege it would be to work close with him like this! All the best! .
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Key-layout for a tenor-treble English Concertina
4to5to6 replied to Abel Miser's topic in Instrument Construction & Repair
PM me your email address and I will send you a nice image and pdf of a CAD drawing I did up. -
Yes, that’s too bad… I need a few end bolts and a couple of riveted reeds and some buttons. Some projects have bern on hold for years. I just bought a small lathe that will do threads so need to figure end bolts out. The same thing with the riveted reed shoes. Especially the ones with a flared slot. How did they do it??? I’ve always heard that “Necessity is the mother of invention.” so we all just need to figure it out. I don’t have a choice if I’m going to play and restore vintage instruments. There are many other ways to tune reeds other than with a bellows. There are a lots of YouTube videos with samples. Hopefully we can all share resources to help one another. Could c.net add a separate “Spares” wanted / for sale category? We’ll work it out. .
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F Tenor conversion - Why D# to Db?
4to5to6 replied to 4to5to6's topic in Instrument Construction & Repair
Both are 48 button tenor (tenor treble) Aeolas. Button arrangements are the same but one has the thumb straps shifted and extra long pinky slides. Please see above discussion. -
F Tenor conversion - Why D# to Db?
4to5to6 replied to 4to5to6's topic in Instrument Construction & Repair
My rare model 14 has 56 buttons with range from G2 to G7, 4 octaves is like a tenor treble except a row is taken off the top and an extra lower row added on the bottom. G to G. The middle C is on the LH side just like a treble or TT so the fingering is NOT reversed like a baritone. However, it is usually still referred to as a Baritone Treble like the other extended baritone instruments. Based on the description above, as it does not have the full treble range then it should be called a baritone tenor. However, most Baritone trebles have the middle C on the RH side (fingering reversed so you can easily play an octave lower with treble fingering) like a baritone. So shouldn’t these instruments be called a Treble Baritone (reversed)? It also gets confusing with a C bass and the lower G bass when combined with an extended range. Many should be called Bass Baritones not Barritone Bass as the higher ranges are reversed like a baritone. The other factor that comes into this, which I originally asked above, and that is not at all obvious in the Wheatstone Price lists is the location of the C button to the thumb strap. Traditionally middle C lines up with the center of the LH thumb strap as with a treble, tenor treble, etc. but not always. Many times the C button is shifted up or even down a row especially with tenor style instruments as shown in the Crabb and Wheatsone photos above. When the middle C is on the RH side, then it should always be called Baritone in my opinion. Interesting discussion. I’m not sure this will ever be standardized in modern times as reference will always be made to the Wheatstone price lists which are inconsistent. . -
F Tenor conversion - Why D# to Db?
4to5to6 replied to 4to5to6's topic in Instrument Construction & Repair
I’ll draw up a button layout tomorrow and attach it. This should explain all.