4to5to6

I read somewhere that you can remove all the reeds, reassemble the instrument, play it, and even with all the reeds removed hear the approximate pitches from the air rushing through the tuned chambers. Is this true? If so, wouldn't this indicate that the chambers are finely tuned to the reed's pitch? Original "old pitch"!!! Is this for tuning reed volumes through resonance? Or... are the reed chambers sized only to influence the responsiveness? John

I imagine that musical expression goes way up with even key heights, cross hole bushings that are just the right size, spring tension set even and at the right level, pads lifting to right height etc. etc. At the very least it would make the instrument a true pleasure to play as all your energy is going into making the music rather than compensating for inconsistencies.

Good one!

Chris, The evidence for this is that they didn't have harmonic and frequency spectrum analyzers, electronic tuners, etc. to see what was going on. The y used their ears. Don't take me wrong... I was complimenting their ability. I am simply wondering if by lowering the pitch to A440 we are throwing everything out of wack... All those things they tweaked by ear... Is it possible the tone and the response is thrown off by lowering the pitch of each reed. Just throwing it out there. I may be totally wrong. Theo, I agree, just as there was no thread standard for the end bolts, there was also no standard for the overall pitch of the instrument. I understand they have tested tuning forks found in old opera houses and they have been all over the map as far as pitch. This all aside, Back on topic... I still can't understand why you blow on a reed with your mouth and there is very little sound and yet put it into a concertina and it is LOUD. I understand there is almost no vibrations in the reed shoe so it's not like a guitar top. The air is chopped up by a pendulum swinging through an air gap. How is the sound amplified and what is the path of this sound and why are there chambers for only the draw reeds (yet the same tone on push)??? What am I missing here?

Thanks. Along the line of your thoughts... I wonder if tuning a concertina to A440 down from A453 messes everything up? In the old days, they fined tuned everything by ear to the old pitch... chambers, hole sizes, pad opening, even voicing of the reeds.

It's hard for me to visualize how the sound is "amplified" in a concertina. The reed itself doesn't significantly make any sound I've often read, it generates a frequency by cutting (starting and stopping) the air column travelling through the shoe as the tongue swings back and forth through the gap like a pendulum. I can visualize that this how the sound starts but not how it is amplified or resonates through the concertina. Sucking or blowing through a reed removed from the instrument makes very little sound. Maybe the reed shoe just has to be attached to something solid with mass to cut the air column cleanly. I am guessing. I can visualize the sound generation and amplification in a clarinet, trumpet, flute (the hardest one) and even a lot easier in a harmonica. I just can't see how the chambers affect the tone in a concertina especially when the sound is the same on both draw and push while the chambers are on only one side.

I just started a new thread requesting info on the path of sound waves through a concertina: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19123

A discussion on the defining Wheatstone's golden age resulted in discussions on materials, end plate design, fret work etc. and I started thinking about how the vibrations travel through a concertina... I thought it would be more appropriate to pick it up here... I don't really understand how the ends affect the sound as it's a total mystery how the reed generated air vibrations even travels through a concertina. For example, with two sets of reeds on an English, why are there reed pan chambers only on the outside of the pan? Wouldn't this chamber only be active on press when the air inside the bellows flows through the inside reed, pulsates or cuts up the air flow causing a tone, goes through the valve then into the chamber and finally out through the open pad hole and out the fret work. But what about on pull when the air flows inward? Does the sound still go outward? Probably a dumb question but it appears it does and so a total mystery to me! I've always wanted to make some models to experiment with how the sound travels through then start doing experiments with chamber sizes, pad hole sizes, reed scaling, etc... even how the thickness of valve material affects the tone. I've asked this a few times with conflicting answers. Maybe someone could explain it quickly and especially the affects of different valve thicknesses and stiffnesses. Why are shallow reed pans louder? What about mahogany reed pans? And this is all apart from the different types of reed material which radically affects the tone. It would be awesome to be able to go back 90 years and pick the brains of one of Wheatstone's master builders. Wouldn't that be something?!!

I have been contemplating building a number of different wooden ends to fit my model 22 metal ended treble. That way everything will be consistent except the different ends. Also thought of trying different fretwork patterns including the early Aeola dot & comma pattern while I'm at it. I've down the CAD drawings, just need the time, money for materials and a place to work. Maybe one day. You know... I don't really understand how the ends affect the sound as it's a total mystery how the reed generated air vibrations even travels through a concertina. For example, with two sets of reeds on an English, why are there reed pan chambers only on the outside of the pan? Wouldn't this chamber only be active on press when the air inside the bellows flows through the inside reed, pulsates or cuts up the air flow causing a tone, goes through the valve then into the chamber and finally out through the open pad hole and out the fret work. But what about on pull when the air flows inward? Does the sound still go outward? Probably a dumb question but it appears it does and so a total mystery to me! I've always wanted to make some models to experiment with how the sound travels through then start doing experiments with chamber sizes, pad hole sizes, reed scaling, etc... even how the thickness of valve material affects the tone. I've asked this a few times with conflicting answers. Probably getting off topic and maybe should be in a new thread but your comments on Britannia metal got me thinking about it again. Maybe someone could explain it quickly and especially the affects of different valve thicknesses and stiffness. Why are shallow reed pans louder? What about mahogany reed pans? And this is all apart from the different types of reed material which radically affects the tone. It would awesome to be able to go back 90 years and pick the brains of one of Wheatstone's master builders. Wouldn't that be something?!!

Thanks Geoff I often wonder why the more "hard use" an instrument experiences, the better it sounds? Your 315xx examples fall nearly right in the middle of 1927. 31536 dates Aug 26, 1927 http://www.horniman.info/ 1927 = 31332 - 31773 31000 = Feb 18, 1926 31999 = Nov 5, 1928 Interesting.

Donald, does the one you were playing fit the description of the one for sale? Any photos? Is it possible to have two Wheatstones with the same serial?

I wholeheartedly agree. The instrument must fit into the mix. What sounds great as a solo instrument may completely get lost in an Irish session for example. So "The Best" is very subjective. 1927 serial numbers range from 31332 - 31773. Geoff, what made the 1927 ones you had so good? Was it the tone? Responsiveness? Balance between treble and low notes? Was there anything that stood out in the design, materials, workmanship, etc.? Maybe the reed scaling was different? What was going on in the history of Wheatstone around 1927? Off the topic... What is the range of your 1927 Baritone/Treble and how many buttons does it have? What model # is it? Serial maybe so I can look it up?

Wow! Great price for a fully restored Aeola. Any chance of posting some photos?

What is the Wheatstone Golden Age or Golden Era all about? I was told this was 30xxx to 32xxx (1924 to 1933), others say 1900 to 1930. Some strongly object to this narrow of range and others insist it is exclusively only 31xxx instruments. I know every concertina is an individual and so it depends strongly on current condition, the reed tuning (re-tuning) condition / skill, the voicing, whether it is played in, air tightness, bellows condition, etc. etc. and I certainly agree that an older less popular instrument can be much superior to a rarer more expensive one. There is collector's antique value vs. players instrument value. Tone quality and even volume, dynamics and responsiveness can all be subjective. It seems the musical quality of an instrument is hard to define but most agree that you can instantly tell when it's there. You just know it! The instrument speaks out and is expressive. You connect with it. So is the Wheatstone Golden Age about reed pan design, action design, materials, quality of workmanship, etc. etc. or is this a collector's thing? All things being equal... What makes these instruments superior? This is probably not an objective thing (or is it?), but more of an opinion thing. I see this phrase a lot so have to ask... What is the Wheatstone Golden Age and when was it?

Thanks Michael. Very nice arrangement and wonderful instrument as well.

Very useful information. Thank you!

Interesting and helpful discussion. Thanks! I am curious to know what tuner or tuner software you use so I can check the overtone harmonic's frequencies and amplitudes. John

I understand that the pitch of the 3rd and 5th overtones can be adjusted to match correctly to the fundamental when tuning a reed (the inharmonicity). This is achieved by adjusting the profile of the reed rather than just filing the base or the tip to lower or raise the overall pitch. The reed tongue vibrates in a figure 8 pattern if not filed flat. All this shows up in the overtones. Problem is... there are plenty of tuners that show the root frequency and some that have built in spectrum analyzers like TonalEnergy and others that show multiple notes at once like Dirks but what about the actual frequency of the 3rd and 5th overtones! Does anyone know of a tuner that show the frequencies of the fundamental, 3rd and 5th? Amplitude of the overtones would be nice as well. I was once told that 6 out of 10 concertina suffer from reed vandalism! I want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Thanks, John

I am interested if you decide to ever sell. I have been searching for a TT since I started playing and live in Canada so please keep me in mind. I would have a very special purpose for this instrument! Thanks, John

Temperaments are tuned by counting the beats. One easy way to do this is to set a metronome to 105 and count 4 beats per tick, then you will be counting 7 bps (105x4=420), (420/60 = 7). Set the metronome to 120 and count 4 beats per tick for 8 bps. Set the metronome to 136 and count 4 beats per tick, that is 9 bps. Etc. To answer the OP's original question... This method may also may be used to calculated A=440 or even old high French opera pitch A=453. As a side, we could even use 60 or 50 Hz AC hum today as a reference these days. The temperament reference octave is then tuned using third, sixth and fifth intervals, tuning them to specific beat rates. The fifth and fourth interval for later used for testing. You can do this the other way around of course. I digress again... Still, the biggest mystery to me is reed inharmonicity! Piano strings have a fixed inharmonicity based on the length of string, string material, bridge design etc. so that the stretch or leveling can be easily predicted and the stretch tuning of each string calculated using software. I use TuneLab. Problem: A free reed tongue's inharmonicity is controlled by the profile shape of the tongue which is varied while filing it. Wanted overtones are tuned and enhanced, while unpleasant overtones are suppressed. I have yet to find any info on how to file a reed to adjust the pitch and amplitude of it's harmonic overtones. John

Since this has gone almost totally off topic, (I like the duscussion and I am learning a few things) whenever temperaments are mentioned I like to recommend the book: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care by Ross W Duffin Reed scaling is also a fascinating topic. Many concertinas will use the same reed frame size for up to 7 different notes to save money while some manufacturers (Wakker for example) will use a frame size for only 2 notes. I've tuned many pianos over the years and first started by counting the beats of the overtones. I am just about to begin tuning concertina reeds and while I understand much of the theory and have enough experience to know what a good concertina should sound like, I have no idea how to physically profile a reed tongue. The best wisdom I think will be, at least at first, to just copy the existing profile, then experiment and just hope I don't ruin too many reeds. The timbre of an instrument is a mostly a result of the number of overtones and the amplitude of overtones. This is why a flutte, trumpet, guitar, concertina sound different even though playing the same note. inharmonicity is simply that the overtones can be out of tune with the fundamental. The stiffness of a string at the ends causes higher overtones to be flat. Pianos are stretch tuned to compensate for this. Higher notes are tuned sharper, lower notes are tuned slightly flat. Apart from scaling (the physical size of the reed tongue in thickness, length, etc.) I understand the profile of a reed drastically affects the number of overtones (harmonics), amplitude of these overtones, therefore tone... the inharmonicity of these overtones. I know that the reed must be filed perfectly flat or it can vibrate in a figure 8 pattern. Oops, must go... to be continued... John

I greatly appreciate this Wes. I can't thank you enough! John

They used a tuning fork as a starting point reference then compared similar harmonics counting the beats to get the correct temperment. Once the middle octave was in tune to the correct temperament, this was used as a reference for the rest of the instrument. Please look up "inharmonicity" and "Pythagorean comma" for more interesting info on this topic... I've heard that Lachenal supplied complete sets of in-tune reference reeds to sub-contractors who would then tune raw reeds to the reference reed pitches. The pitch of the reed out of the instrument is different from when it is in the instrument. The mystery to me is how they got the right profile of the reed tongue enhancing/suppressing certain harmonics and tuning these harmonics is the big mystery to me. See inharmonicity on Wikipedia. Thanks, John

I'm still searching for C&S 01 no 01.pdf if anyone can help. Thanks, John

Thanks Ken, It's sad to hear that George Salley has passed away. I'm sure it is ok if I was sent an issue. I'm reading The Wheatstone Concertina by Alan Atlas and he makes references to this volume of C&S, the one I don't have. The specific pdf file I am searching for is "C&S 01 no 01.pdf" if anyone can sendspace it to me. Let me know if you have this file and I'll message you with my email address and instructions. Much appreciated, John