The Fallacy of "Talent"

[Mark Evans]

For others, who grew up in a musically deprived environment, music is a foreign language.

 

Is that really possible today?

 

There have been occations when in a shop looking for a particular atricle of clothing for my Goth and post-Goth children, I have been so assulted by the bone crushing music blasting forth that panic overwhelmed me. Confessing this panic and my very real need to get the hell outta there brings on the most evil grin from my daughter.

 

My progeny are now given the required cash and I wait outside on a bench where my poor unhinged mind is tourtured by horrible easy listening do-dah dripping out of the Mall sound system.... Beware....Music....is everywhere.

[LDT]

For others, who grew up in a musically deprived environment, music is a foreign language.

 

Is that really possible today?

 

There have been occations when in a shop looking for a particular atricle of clothing for my Goth and post-Goth children, I have been so assulted by the bone crushing music blasting forth that panic overwhelmed me. Confessing this panic and my very real need to get the hell outta there brings on the most evil grin from my daughter.

 

My progeny are now given the required cash and I wait outside on a bench where my poor unhinged mind is tourtured by horrible easy listening do-dah dripping out of the Mall sound system.... Beware....Music....is everywhere.

Music is a foreign language to me. And I need to find a phrasebook.

 

Goth style rocks. I'm a closet goth....I would love to wear all the outrageous stuff...but I don't have the guts...like some of the music though....but the 'lighter' end of goth.

 

 

When there's no music playing....its annoyingly stuck in my head.

 

I have no talent and thus will only ever archive average no matter how hard I practice....and I will always be rubbish at playing in my own eyes.

[Robin Madge]

Going back to the original study, they are looking at a very select group of people and deffinately not a cross-section of the public.

 

Why would someone with talent be in such an intitution in the first place? They can already do what is being taught. The people who benefit from this type of teaching are the ones who do need to put in the hours.

 

For example, Yehudi Menuhin's autobiography reveals that he had extreme difficulty with playing by ear, everything was learned from the dots and analysed for subtle improvements, which were then incorporate into his performance. What sounded like virtuosity was hours of practice and planned sequences.

To my mind he had immence talent, but his talent was in creating sound consistently to order rather than being creative.

 

And what is defined as practice?

 

You need to have the brain wired up so that you can play the note/chord/sequence of notes with the fingers when you want them, but surely having the tune fixed in the brain is just as important. I spend perhaps 3 hours a week on average actually playing the concertina but I have a tune or piece of music going through my head in the background most of the time that I'm awake:)

 

By the way,I cannot associate a note with a finger movement unless I'm actually holding a concertina in my hands, so I'm not talking about "air-concertina". If I try that I have no idea what I'm doing and I could be playing anything!

 

Robin Madge

[michael sam wild]

If we listen to some of the talented youngsters around today on concertina (and Paddy Murphy said they were better than in his day, in an interview with G o'H on 'In Good Hands' ) what more can time and experience bring to them? Or is it all there once you have had the family, cultural background, hard work etc etc?

 

Is that when you go off and explore other forms of music, collaborate etc to keep up the challenge or do you 'stick to your last' and explore your native music in greater depth and keep revisiting the well.?

[PeterT]

And what is defined as practice?

 

You need to have the brain wired up so that you can play the note/chord/sequence of notes with the fingers when you want them, but surely having the tune fixed in the brain is just as important. I spend perhaps 3 hours a week on average actually playing the concertina but I have a tune or piece of music going through my head in the background most of the time that I'm awake:)

 

By the way,I cannot associate a note with a finger movement unless I'm actually holding a concertina in my hands, so I'm not talking about "air-concertina". If I try that I have no idea what I'm doing and I could be playing anything!

Me too!

 

Like Robin, I "put in the hours" at the beginning.

[hjcjones]

To say that "empirical observation" proves something is in this instance begging the question. You cannot argue that excellence proves that talent existed before the fact. If you say that without the hard work a player will not become accomplished -- and that therefore talent won't mean all that much anyway -- then talent might as well not exist at all.

 

All I'm saying is that someone with natural ability at something still has to put in the work to develop that ability.

 

We know that you cannot get "there" without hard work. It begs the question to say that without having talent as well the 10,000 hours would be of no help. How can you know this?

 

Perhaps it's self-defining - surely "talent" is having the ability to rise above the average.

 

Look at what happens in classical music, where there is a well-established training process, from Grade 1 leading up to the conservertoire. Clearly, anyone going through this process has musical aptitude and intelligence, and sufficient love and understanding of music to wish to submit themselves to a demanding regime. At the end of the process, the vast majority will turn out to be sufficently accomplished musicians to earn a living. However, only a tiny minority will have the something extra which enables them to become stars. Is that simply because they've worked harder than the others? I don't believe it - I think their study and practice will have been more effective because they have talent which the others lack.

 

Success (in the form of monetary reward) depends in large part on hustle and luck as well as on accomplishment. Talent has nothing to do with appearing on a world stage.

 

Absolutely, and more so in some genres than others. But I suspect it is not possible to sustain a succesful career on bullshit alone. Even those "celebrities" who seem to be famous for being famous have a talent of sorts, even if it's only for self-promotion.

 

I find the concept of talent to be not only useless but self-defeating as well. It is much more helpful to deny that there is such a thing. Because then it is up to you rather than on something you can't help.

 

It depends how you approach it. If you believe that by continually striving to improve you'll get better, that's positive. But if you end up believing that the reason so-and-so is a star and you're not is because he's been luckier than you or that all you've got to do is to work harder, you'll end up disappointed - unless you do have talent yourself.

 

Talent is always something that is appealed to after the fact.

Well of course, talent is only recognised after the fact. It takes success, whether financial or merely acclaim, to reveal the talent.

 

 

Some people have talent, the way some people have charm. Hard work and application can go a long way to disguising the fact that one has neither, but are ultimately no substitute for the real thing

[Robin Madge]

Wouldn't it be nice if tutor instruments came with a built in timer. There's been a lot of quotes of "X" number of hours here but it's very difficult to work out how many you've done yourself.

I'm still not convinced that there is a special number of hours that you must do in order to become "proficient".

 

Peter, the first time that you and I were both in a competition at Taunton I work it out that I was up to about 1500 hours, can you remember how many you had done?

 

Robin Madge

[PeterT]

Peter, the first time that you and I were both in a competition at Taunton I work it out that I was up to about 1500 hours, can you remember how many you had done?

Hi Robin,

 

I'm sorry, I haven't a clue!

 

That was back in November 1986, and I started my epic battle in March 1981; a bit before you. A pure guess would be in the region of 2000/2500 hours. I'd been playing for the Morris since the end of 1982, so travel time to practice, and "outs", limited the time available to practice. Our results, where we finished equal second with 91/100 marks, suggested that we'd done a reasonable job. Now, whatever happened to Iris Bishop, who won with 92 marks???

 

I'd conclude that when you've reached a certain "standard" (whatever that is, in Folk circles), and go and play in public, whilst you get exposed to new tunes, ideas, people etc. (all of which should be positive), the number of hours available to actually practice, learn, etc. reduces (which should be negative). However, the new input/stimulus etc., might actually teach you to "learn smarter", so it's all a trade-off.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Ishtar]

Wouldn't it be nice if tutor instruments came with a built in timer.

 

Someone needs to get coding. I can see the Wii Concertina Tutor flying off the shelves next Christmas.

[LDT]

Wouldn't it be nice if tutor instruments came with a built in timer.

 

Someone needs to get coding. I can see the Wii Concertina Tutor flying off the shelves next Christmas.

That would be soooo cool. I'd love a Wii Concertina.

[chris]

Hi

Iris Bishop is playing accompaniment to Martyn Windham-Read

chris

[LDT]

Hi

Iris Bishop is playing accompaniment to Martyn Windham-Read

chris

 

Its hard to take photo's when tall people sit in front

Edited November 18, 2008 by LDT

[PeterT]

Hi

Iris Bishop is playing accompaniment to Martyn Windham-Read

chris

Hi Chris,

 

Yes .... I was teasing! I've not seen Iris for a number of years, but have kept track of her musical activities. I happened to see a photo of the two of them, playing a concert last weekend. Some of our C.net members get around!

 

Regards,

Peter.

[LDT]

I happened to see a photo of the two of them, playing a concert last weekend. Some of our C.net members get around!

ha-h'm I've modified my above post to include some photo's. Got a couple from that Tribute to Bert concert at the weekend.

[Mark Evans]

Talent is always something that is appealed to after the fact.

Well of course, talent is only recognised after the fact. It takes success, whether financial or merely acclaim, to reveal the talent.

 

 

Some people have talent, the way some people have charm. Hard work and application can go a long way to disguising the fact that one has neither, but are ultimately no substitute for the real thing

 

Having already confessed the sin of once being a voice teacher, I did have two talented students who wandered into my studio: a beautifully voiced soprano whose clear instrument always gave me chills as she approached her upper register and basso profundo who could at a 9:00am lesson vocalize down near the end of a standard coursed piano and clearly ring out a full voiced A-flat in the tenor range once the instrument was warm. What was remarkable past their beautiful instruments was what appeared to be a natural musical intuition and ability with communicating language and idea.

 

Both came to me as freshmen and had a very limited contact with "classical" vocal repertoire. They took to it like they were always meant to sing this literature. After a year working with the soprano, I urged her to audition for a well known conservatory where opportunity might find her if she wanted to devote herself to such a path. Wouldn't it be nice to say she became a raging success? Well I can't, for we lost touch after a few years....

 

The basso stayed with me for his undergraduate degree and later became a pastor. The beams of his church shake with that wonderful instrument and soul to this day.

 

They both worked like beasts, and came through my door understanding within themselves things I could not teach. There is indeed no substitute for the real thing.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Mark Evans

[Anglo-Irishman]

Having already confessed the sin of once being a voice teacher, I did have two talented students who wandered into my studio: a beautifully voiced soprano whose clear instrument always gave me chills as she approached her upper register and basso profundo who could at a 9:00am lesson vocalize down near the end of a standard coursed piano and clearly ring out a full voiced A-flat in the tenor range once the instrument was warm. What was remarkable past their beautiful instruments was what appeared to be a natural musical intuition and ability with communicating language and idea.

...

 

They both worked like beasts, and came through my door understanding within themselves things I could not teach. There is indeed no substitute for the real thing.

 

Mark,

Lovely posting.

 

I'm quite certain that a singing teacher knows more about talent than a psychologist. And recognises its presence or absence long before the talented have left the less talented behind.

 

What is a fallacy is that you can only recognise talent after the fact - when somebody has had more success than others who worked equally hard.

 

The son of a friend of mine wanted to be a professional (association) football goalkeeper. So he auditioned with a club. The trainer put him in a goal, and had some of the lads take shots at it, most of which he let in. Nevertheless, the trainer said, "We'll take him. He's not a goalie yet, but he will be if we work at it. He moves like a goalie." The boy went on to become a prefessional goalkeeper. That's how talent scouts work. They recognise who it's worth working with.

 

When someone has excelled at something, it's easy to say either (a) he has a lot of talent or (b ) he has worked harder than anyone else. With beginners who haven't worked at all yet, the difference in aptitude can only come from different degrees of talent. And it takes a singing teacher or football trainer or suchlike expert to recognise these differences - not a psychologist.

 

Cheers,

John

Edited November 18, 2008 by Anglo-Irishman

[stevejay]

Also coordination and a quick eye for mimicry.

[Henrik Müller]

For others, who grew up in a musically deprived environment, music is a foreign language.

 

Is that really possible today?

 

There have been occations when in a shop looking for a particular atricle of clothing for my Goth and post-Goth children, I have been so assulted by the bone crushing music blasting forth that panic overwhelmed me. Confessing this panic and my very real need to get the hell outta there brings on the most evil grin from my daughter.

 

My progeny are now given the required cash and I wait outside on a bench where my poor unhinged mind is tourtured by horrible easy listening do-dah dripping out of the Mall sound system.... Beware....Music....is everywhere.

Ah, Mark - you sure have a way with words - "surgical precision" comes to my mind. I am still giggling! :D

/Henrik