Need Parts For Repair Of Button Box

[joe0490]

Hi All:

I am trying to repair a old one row button box . I am in need of new velves for it, but don't know of a place to get them. Thay are leather and differant sizes. Could I just get some leather for concertinas and cut them myself?

Thanks for the info

God Bless

Joe B

[Paul Read]

Hi All:

I am trying to repair a old one row button box . I am in need of new velves for it, but don't know of a place to get them. Thay are leather and differant sizes. Could I just get some leather for concertinas and cut them myself?

Thanks for the info

God Bless

Joe B

Joe,

Google the Button Box. They'll be able to help.

[Pete Dunk]

Hello Joe, over here on the other side of the pond we call diatonic accordions 'melodeons'. There's a good forum with an informative construction and repair section at Melodeon.net, you'll find the members very helpful if you have any questions.

 

Pete.

Edited July 27, 2008 by tallship

[Guest HallelujahAl!]

Hi All:

I am trying to repair a old one row button box . I am in need of new velves for it, but don't know of a place to get them. Thay are leather and differant sizes. Could I just get some leather for concertinas and cut them myself?

Thanks for the info

God Bless

Joe B

Hi contact Charlie at CGM Musical Supplies He's a really good guy who'll know exactly how to help you. And most importantly, he's CHEAP! Concertina leather is not appropriate for accordion/melodeon reeds. I got a selection of valves from Charlie for an old melodeon (German made) see this link : 125 Accordion/Melodeon Vinyl (Ventile)Reed Valves as described they're made from Vinyl and they did a fantatstic job. I don't think that the purists like them for some strange reason! BTW Charlie does an excellent line in standard leather valves for accordions/ melodeons. Hope this helps.

God Bless, CaptainAL

Edited July 27, 2008 by HallelujahAl!

[Stephen Chambers]

... they're made from Vinyl and they did a fantatstic job. I don't think that the purists like them for some strange reason!

They do have some advantages over leather, but at the end of the day many of us "purists" (yep, that's me ) dislike the bright/hard tone they produce, so we much prefer the warmer/deeper sound you get with leather.

[Guest HallelujahAl!]

... they're made from Vinyl and they did a fantatstic job. I don't think that the purists like them for some strange reason!

They do have some advantages over leather, but at the end of the day many of us "purists" (yep, that's me ) dislike the bright/hard tone they produce, so we much prefer the warmer/deeper sound you get with leather.

Yes, OK I hear you - perhaps you can explain to me how it is that a vinyl valve affects the tone? Surely its role is simply to affect the passage of air through the instrument (whether melodeon or concertina)? Surely depth of tone etc is much more dependant upon the reed and the sound chamber of the instrument?

CaptainAL

[m3838]

... they're made from Vinyl and they did a fantatstic job. I don't think that the purists like them for some strange reason!

They do have some advantages over leather, but at the end of the day many of us "purists" (yep, that's me ) dislike the bright/hard tone they produce, so we much prefer the warmer/deeper sound you get with leather.

Yes, OK I hear you - perhaps you can explain to me how it is that a vinyl valve affects the tone? Surely its role is simply to affect the passage of air through the instrument (whether melodeon or concertina)? Surely depth of tone etc is much more dependant upon the reed and the sound chamber of the instrument?

CaptainAL

 

Hmm. I'd be very interested in answer as well. Perhaps plastic valves do reflect the sound more than leather with suade, facing the sound wave?

[Richard Morse]

...made from Vinyl and they did a fantatstic job. I don't think that the purists like them for some strange reason!

I prefer leather valves for my button accordions because they seem to be quieter, last longer, and have fewer problems. We do a lot of accordion repair work and VERY often have to replace plastic valves. The most common problem with plastic valves seems to be that they attract dirt/smoke/particles. I don't know if it's because they acquire a small static electrical charge or because humidity clings to the surface??? At any rate, it doesn't take long (several months to several years) for enough grunge to be attracted to the valves that they become a little sticky... and adhere themselves to the reedplate making for delayed notes... and eventually keeping them from sounding at all.

 

We can replace them with the "original equipment" plastic valves, or better man-made material valves, or leather valves. Most of our customers wind up choosing the leather.

 

-- Rich --

 

PS: We (The Button Box) sell valves for do-it-yourselfers. Keep in mind that you'll need to have the box retuned after you replace the valves. That's not an easy thing to do, but and easy way to wreck your box if you're not adept/experienced at it. We also tune as well though it's a lot less expensive to tune a box that's NOT been priorly "tuned" by a novice.

[Stephen Chambers]

Yes, OK I hear you - perhaps you can explain to me how it is that a vinyl valve affects the tone? Surely its role is simply to affect the passage of air through the instrument (whether melodeon or concertina)? Surely depth of tone etc is much more dependant upon the reed and the sound chamber of the instrument?

Hmm. I'd be very interested in answer as well. Perhaps plastic valves do reflect the sound more than leather with suade, facing the sound wave?

Sorry to disappoint you guys, but I don't pretend to know the physics of what's going on, and yes, other things are obviously even more important in producing the sound, but I'm telling you what I've noticed in nearly 40 years (ok, so it's only 38 years since I first attempted to revive a deceased concertina!) of working on free reed instruments.

 

However, I suspect that though the closing plastic valve also does so noisily (another downside with them), the subtle difference in tone has more to do with the opening valve on the back of the reed that's playing - where the valve itself can tend to act as a "reed" in its own right, and where a leather valve probably has a more "damping" effect on the harmonics of the note?

[hielandman]

Quote "Concertina leather is not appropriate for accordion/melodeon reeds. "

 

Al, I have restored turn of the century button Accordians and melodians(Globes, and others), and their valves were Leather.

I have seen plenty of modern concertinas(stagi, bastari, hohner, etc....) with plastic valves. The reason is simple....in the 19th century, there was no vinyl, plastic, etc... to make valves out of, so they used what was available, tried, and true-----Leather! They built many thousands(millions??) of accordians with leather valves long before vinyl was invented. So to say that leather valves are not appropriate for melodians means that the reverse would be true, that vinyl is not appropriate for concertinas, but all you have to do is open a new factory one up, and you will see vinyl/plastic, whatever the heck man made atmospherically impervious material it is in there on the aluminum reed plate. The reason they use this material is for several important reasons(to the bean counters, that is): it is very cheap, and it has an idefinate shelf life!! If, on Friday afternoon when all the employees leave for the weekend, a pipe over the plastic valve storage shelf should start leaking, nothing is ruined or hurt, they will just sponge the water off on monday morning, as opposed to possibly ruining many hundreds of dollars worth of tanned deerskin waiting to be cut up into valves(which can also get moldy, moth eaten, just sitting there on the shelf during a damp summer) It is economics that has caused modern intruments to use "modern"(if inferior) materials.

 

As to the different accoustic propertys ascribed to different materials, that should also be fairly easy to explain. Take a Rosewood guitar , a mahogany guitar, and a maple guitar,(identical models, other than the wood) and strum a chord on them. they will all sound somewhat different. The Rosewood will be richest, the maple harshest, and the mahogany more like the Rosewood, but not exactly the same. That is because all materials respond to sound differently. I have been in hard walled recording studios where they put draperies on the walls to muffle the sound, and others lined with cork. Still others have carpet nailed to the walls. Brick walls react differently to sound than does wood, than does plaster and lath, than does sheet rocked walls. Concertina and/or melodian valves do the same thing, reflect and/or absorb sound in different measures and qualities depending on what they are made of(albeit on a smaller scale). As Rich has pointed out earlier, new/different valves can/will affect the tuning, based on the differing qualities of the valve material. None is right or wrong in concertinas/melodians, just the makers/owners/repairers preference, and or budget. So Joe, go get some leather and cut them yourself, and have fun, as that what this is all about!

Take care all,

 

Don

Edited July 29, 2008 by hielandman

[Richard Morse]

Quote "Concertina leather is not appropriate for accordion/melodeon reeds. "

 

Al, I have restored turn of the century button Accordians and melodians(Globes, and others), and their valves were Leather....

Yes, both accordions and concertina used leather valves back then, and all but the low-end ones still do today. I think what Al was referring to is that CONCERTINA leather valves are *very* different from accordion leather valves, and that the difference makes them considerably more expensive (hence, not appropriate?).

 

Concertina valves are made from select areas of hair sheep and have a rounded trapezoidal shape (or straight-sided egg shape?) while accordion valves are made from (pretty much any part of) cow hide and are rectangular. Between the material cost, specific *part* and grain direction of the material fussiness, cutting efficiency process, and material wastage... makes concertina valves less *economically* appropriate for accordions. But they would work. And accordion leather valves will work in concertinas (if you cut them to the correct shape to fit).

 

But which leather valves work better? In all my years of repairing old boxes I've noticed that concertina valves last considerably longer than accordion valves, are quieter (less valve slap), and are more responsive (particularly the very smallest ones).

 

But concertina valves are more expensive. Not a big deal when your talking about 60 valves in a typical anglo or 96 for a typical English, but a basic "full size" accordion needs has at least 344 valves and accordions with 500-600 valves is not uncommon. No wonder plastic valves are used a lot in the lower quality accordions!

 

How much? Valve cost for a typical PA would be about $60 in plastic, $140 in accordion leather, and $170 in concertina leather.

 

-- Rich --

[Guest HallelujahAl!]

Yep, I'm not suggesting that concertina valves are not totally inappropriate - they'd work just as well and maybe better than any other material (i.e Vinyl). But why bother when the alternatives are out there and just so much cheaper? Also I don't know if there'd be a problem with finding concertina leather of the right size to be able to cut valves for the bass end of the accordion?

 

What I did notice about the vinyl valves that I used for the melodeon that I restored, however, was that the vinyl valves were 'layered' (three thin slices of vinyl of different lengths joined together to make one complete valve) so that they appeared to have an inherent 'brake' built in. I've been thinking about this recently - because I've noticed that valves on the 'pull' side of my EC have a little metal brake pushed into the side of the reedpan, the valves on the 'push' obviously do not (no reedpan sides to push metal brake into). Wouldn't it be a good idea for these valves to have some kind of brake in-built? Or am I totally half-cocked? Tell me guys - I can take it! Blessings AL

[Stephen Chambers]

... why bother when the alternatives are out there and just so much cheaper? Also I don't know if there'd be a problem with finding concertina leather of the right size to be able to cut valves for the bass end of the accordion?

Absolutely, cutting your own accordion valves out of a piece of concertina valve leather (which is not the same as accordion valve leather) for an "old one row button box" would be the most difficult and costly way to go, especially when ready-made leather or plastic ones are available more easily and more cheaply (unless it's a Globe "Gold Medal" old one row button box, or something of the sort).

 

... I've noticed that valves on the 'pull' side of my EC have a little metal brake pushed into the side of the reedpan, the valves on the 'push' obviously do not (no reedpan sides to push metal brake into). Wouldn't it be a good idea for these valves to have some kind of brake in-built?

It's not really a "brake", think of it more as a "guard-rail" to stop the valve on that side getting into the pad-hole, where it can become stuck.

 

The layers of a plastic accordion valve are to give it more rigidity/more spring, whilst retaining elasticity.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Stephen Chambers

[Richard Morse]

Yep, I'm not suggesting that concertina valves are not totally inappropriate - they'd work just as well and maybe better than any other material (i.e Vinyl). But why bother when the alternatives are out there and just so much cheaper?

Because the alternatives are quite a bit NOT better.

 

Also I don't know if there'd be a problem with finding concertina leather of the right size to be able to cut valves for the bass end of the accordion?

Well, there *is* a problem - hair sheep are very rare. Very, very few people deal with selling their hides, and fewer yet of those hides have been treated, tanned and skived for valves. Of course once you get a skin you can make many valves out of it (including very large bass valves) though some parts of the skin aren't appropriate, and there's a fair bit of wastage as the valves have to be aligned with the grain.

 

-- Rich --