English Or Irish Style?

[PeterT]

I'm very much looking forward to the chance to sit down with some Fanøese musicians and exchange tunes.

Sounds fun, Chris. Make sure you bring us back some good ones.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Chris Timson]

If were talking local traditions.....I'd say a song like 'Baggy Trousers' by Madness (You play that song and every member of my extended family in the vicinity will join in dancing) represents my community more than the Trad songs. Does that make it a new tradition?

I strongly suggest you take that question to Mudcat, where people waste many a happy hour shouting at each other about what is and is not traditional.

 

Personally I've learnt my lesson and will not be drawn by questions like that any more. Life's too short. And don't get me started on horse music!

 

Chris

 

Edited to add PS: I'll try to, Peter. If you can, get hold of the CD Jae' Sweevers. Some nice tunes there. The very first tune sounds just like the B music of Not For Joe. Scary.

Edited September 9, 2008 by Chris Timson

[tombilly]

"Who stole the kishka?" It brings back fond memories from many Polish weddings and parties I attended in the midwest, but I don't have any desire to play it or other more traditional Polish polkas. So I guess I disagree with you. Why should I have to immerse myself in the "ready made local culture of music making" when its another tradition that calls me? I think that is a very narrow view of how music tradition should propagate.

 

That's grand and you are surely part of the wider Irish traditional music community but those Polish songs still mean something special to you as they link you back to your community. I only speak from a personal perspective - I happen to be Irish, I live in a rural area, I like playing a bit of music and sharing it with other musicians. If I wanted I'm sure I could play blues, jazz, church music, classical, rock and sometimes I do play bits and pieces of these that stick in the head - I could go out and find like minded people within a reasonable distance if I tried, but I feel no great love or connection to them. These genres do not speak to me in the same way as the various dance music and melodies that make up ITM - they don't feel as genuine in the same way. I have no doubt that if I had been born and brought up in Poland or England, I'd be playing Polish or English folk music if the opportunity was there - if I went to live in Russia tomorrow, I would take an interest in the music played there. I think it's important to value your heritage and carry it on as a link in the chain.

Edited September 9, 2008 by tombilly

[LDT]

And don't get me started on horse music!

horses play music?

lol

[Chris Timson]

And don't get me started on horse music!

horses play music?

From the uk.music.folk FAQ:-

 

What is all this stuff about horses?

 

The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations states that in the New York Times newspaper, 7th July 1971, Louis Armstrong is quoted as saying "All music is folk music, I ain't never heard no horse sing a song."

 

The significance of this quote is that is vastly and repetitively overused as a justification for including (or excluding) any particular artist, genre, or type of music in the remit of umf.

 

Regulars to umf have become so tired of seeing this quotation used as a justification for just about anything, that the mere possibility of its introduction into the discussion is greeted with ‘Horse’, ‘Horse alert’, or some such. It is umf's very own version of Godwin's Law. It also plays havoc with the viability of any threads concerning songs or tunes about horses.

 

Shockwave-equipped readers may like to take a detour at this point to http://svt.se/hogafflahage/hogafflaHage_si...or/hestekor.swf, where you can find ... some singing horses!

 

The horse quotation, or the threat of it, has indeed become umf shorthand for the next frequently asked question:

 

What is folk music?

 

I warned you ...

 

Chris

Edited September 9, 2008 by Chris Timson

[PeterT]

And don't get me started on horse music!

horses play music?

From the uk.music.folk FAQ:-

 

What is all this stuff about horses?

 

The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations states that in the New York Times newspaper, 7th July 1971, Louis Armstrong is quoted as saying "All music is folk music, I ain't never heard no horse sing a song."

 

The significance of this quote is that is vastly and repetitively overused as a justification for including (or excluding) any particular artist, genre, or type of music in the remit of umf.

 

Regulars to umf have become so tired of seeing this quotation used as a justification for just about anything, that the mere possibility of its introduction into the discussion is greeted with ‘Horse’, ‘Horse alert’, or some such. It is umf's very own version of Godwin's Law. It also plays havoc with the viability of any threads concerning songs or tunes about horses.

 

Shockwave-equipped readers may like to take a detour at this point to http://svt.se/hogafflahage/hogafflaHage_si...or/hestekor.swf, where you can find ... some singing horses!

 

The horse quotation, or the threat of it, has indeed become umf shorthand for the next frequently asked question:

 

What is folk music?

 

I warned you ...

 

Chris

I didn't get close enough to hear what this one was singing. In a field, in the English countryside ...... must have been folk!

[LDT]

The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations states that in the New York Times newspaper, 7th July 1971, Louis Armstrong is quoted as saying "All music is folk music, I ain't never heard no horse sing a song."

 

The significance of this quote is that is vastly and repetitively overused as a justification for including (or excluding) any particular artist, genre, or type of music in the remit of umf.

They are always using that quote on TAW.

 

What is folk music?

I warned you ...

I wasn't going to ask what is folk music...wouldn't dare.

 

this thread has kinda gone off on a tangent.

 

I only asked my original question coz I find chords really hard..I wondered if by playing in a different 'style' would limit my choice of tunes.

Edited September 9, 2008 by LDT

[Anglo-Irishman]

I wasn't going to ask what is folk music...wouldn't dare.

 

this thread has kinda gone off on a tangent.

 

I only asked my original question coz I find chords really hard..I wondered if by playing in a different 'style' would limit my choice of tunes.

 

Dear LDT,

 

Well, now you know that people will tell you all about folk music - and even more about traditional music - if you as much as hint at an ethnic word like "English" or "Irish" in a posting!

 

Was there a warning notice packed with your concertina, saying the you must play either

(a.) melody right and chords left or (b.) melody only across the rows, otherwise it will auto-destruct?

 

I thought not!

 

It's your concertina, and it's your music. You musical background guides you in what you want to do. But every instrument is difficult in some way. (That's part of the fun.) So you may not be able to play the way you think you'd like to. Not yet, that is. But give yourself some time, and you'll learn the tricks of the trade.

I agree that it's a good thing to pick up tricks from different "trades" - grace notes from here, chords from there, cross-rowing from yonder. Makes you a more complete concertinist.

 

When you're by yourself, you may think of this trick as an "English" trick, and that trick as an "Irish" trick. But don't say it out loud, or people will go off at a tangent again.

 

Cheers,

John

[chiton1]

I only asked my original question coz I find chords really hard..I wondered if by playing in a different 'style' would limit my choice of tunes.

 

When you start playing many techniques (chords, ornamentations etc.) can be very hard. You just have to start playing those tunes that you like and that are not to difficult. With time you will add more and more technique which will broaden your possibilities in whatever style. Playing in one style only will limit your choice of tunes (if you want them to sound ''good''), but you could in time perhaps play in different styles.

 

Now the question about ETM, ITM or whatever style, wether played on a AC or EC (I love all these abbreviations) is another one.

I feel that any TM has to be played in a certain framework. The framework can be hard to define, but there is a certain feel acquired with time and immersion.

Musicians playing within that framework can somewhat push the limits of it, and by doing so enlarge it. Many have done so in the past. In ITM several players have pushed the limits, like Michael Coleman, Matt Molloy, Noel Hill etc. But they never broke out of the framework. As soon as you do, or as soon as you play ITM tunes in a style from another framework, you are not playing TM. It can be fun and I wish everybody good luck and great fun in doing so but it won't be TM. The notes will be the same but not the feel. Without a framework implying certain rules and limitations there will not be any TM.

This is not IMHO, this is just how it is, it is the truth; trust me

[LDT]

I didn't get close enough to hear what this one was singing. In a field, in the English countryside ...... must have been folk!

ROFL! If I could draw a cartoon horse I'd do a little sketch of that. Any horse related songs that it might be singing?

 

Well, now you know that people will tell you all about folk music - and even more about traditional music - if you as much as hint at an ethnic word like "English" or "Irish" in a posting!

Ah..next time I will be clever and use the code words Vulcan and Klingon instead

 

It's your concertina, and it's your music. You musical background guides you in what you want to do. But every instrument is difficult in some way. (That's part of the fun.) So you may not be able to play the way you think you'd like to. Not yet, that is. But give yourself some time, and you'll learn the tricks of the trade.

I agree that it's a good thing to pick up tricks from different "trades" - grace notes from here, chords from there, cross-rowing from yonder. Makes you a more complete concertinist.

I wish I could 'pick it up' quicker.

[hjcjones]

I only asked my original question coz I find chords really hard..I wondered if by playing in a different 'style' would limit my choice of tunes.

 

Chords are hard. It's hard enough to move just one finger at a time and to manage to hit the right button, but to play chords you have to learn to move several fingers at once. You also have to learn how to do different things with each hand, at the same time. Sometimes, when you're learning, it just seems all too much. But if you stick with it, it will come.

 

You also have to learn which chords to play. You can do this either via musical theory or by trial and error. Fortunately the anglo is well-suited to the latter method But it's still something else to think about.

 

Playing an instrument is a bit like driving a car - there's an awful lot going on at once, and you have to split your attention between the physical actions of driving, avoiding other road users, and navigating your route. When you're learning, each of these elements seems to demand your full attention, but with practice you find you can do them all at once. It's the same with your concertina - it's not easy to begin with, and there will be frustrating times when it seems impossible, but in time it will all come together for you.

 

Decide what sound you want to make with your concertina. If you want to play chords, then stick with it. Don't take the apparently "easy option" just because playing chords seems too difficult at the moment. Besides, you'll find that playing single-note style can be no less demanding in terms of technique.

[tombilly]

I only asked my original question coz I find chords really hard..I wondered if by playing in a different 'style' would limit my choice of tunes.

 

That's why we came around to your choice of music - if you live in England and want to play English type folk etc., then you need to stick at the chord stuff - forget the Irish stuff, don't be going off at tangents!!

[LDT]

Chords are hard. It's hard enough to move just one finger at a time and to manage to hit the right button, but to play chords you have to learn to move several fingers at once. You also have to learn how to do different things with each hand, at the same time. Sometimes, when you're learning, it just seems all too much. But if you stick with it, it will come.

well last night I was on the brink of tears coz I couldn't do it. know its childish...but I don't know....blame it on my hormones. lol!

 

 

Playing an instrument is a bit like driving a car - there's an awful lot going on at once, and you have to split your attention between the physical actions of driving, avoiding other road users, and navigating your route. When you're learning, each of these elements seems to demand your full attention, but with practice you find you can do them all at once. It's the same with your concertina - it's not easy to begin with, and there will be frustrating times when it seems impossible, but in time it will all come together for you.

Don't even start on driving...last time I tried I had trouble starting the car then I kangerooed it down the road and did the gearbox in. lol!

My co-ordination has never been...erm..great.

 

Decide what sound you want to make with your concertina. If you want to play chords, then stick with it. Don't take the apparently "easy option" just because playing chords seems too difficult at the moment. Besides, you'll find that playing single-note style can be no less demanding in terms of technique.

I'm going to give it a try for at least a month before I give it a rest for a while (chords that is).

[PeterT]

I'm going to give it a try for at least a month before I give it a rest for a while (chords that is).

No-one should pretend that learning a musical instrument, to a good standard, is easy. You get the occasional person, who we might class as "genius", who appears able to pick up a new instrument, play it to a good standard in weeks, then move onto something else through boredom. For most of us, it's hard work to develop what talent we have.

 

There will always be musicians who we view as better than ourselves, and who appear to play instruments with ease. However; it can take years to reach this standard. It is possible, since learning is a series of "discoveries" or "building blocks", to make significant progress over a passage of time.

 

It's a bit like climbing a long flight of stairs, where even the few virtuoso players have not quite reached the top. Even if you settle for only climbing a few stairs, you'll be a much better musician than those standing on the ground floor, looking up, thinking "I wish I could do that". Many people don't even motivate themselves sufficiently to make a start.

 

So; keep plugging away at the chords, keep looking at books and videos, and keep asking questions. Eventually, enough knowledge will "stick" for you to work out most things for yourself.

[chris]

Hi

remember 'it's not a race' you don't have to be good straight away. Take your time. I'd remind you of the tortoise and the hare but I guess they don't play concertina so it might be seen as thread drift

good luck

chris

[Chris Timson]

this thread has kinda gone off on a tangent.

 

I only asked my original question coz I find chords really hard..I wondered if by playing in a different 'style' would limit my choice of tunes.

Well as one of the perpetrators I must apologise for a classic case of thread drift. But I can't find it in my heart to feel too sorry, because I thought it was a really interesting discussion.

 

I think working on a different style can only enrich your overall skill and ability even if you decide to ditch it and go back to your original style. You will know more about the possibilities the instrument can offer and will have more tools in your toolbox to use in approaching any tune.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

Edited to add PS: I see you come from Essex. Lot of good players in Essex. I don't live there now (thus raising the average ability level in the county) but I was born in Ilford.

Edited September 9, 2008 by Chris Timson

[LDT]

Edited to add PS: I see you come from Essex. Lot of good players in Essex. I don't live there now (thus raising the average ability level in the county) but I was born in Ilford.

ah now I've lowered it again

 

with chords you need to understand how a chord is made up,if you understand tonic solfa,it is relatively easy,a major chord is made up of do me and soh. 1 3 5 of the major scale,to get a minor chord me is flattened a semi tone.

a chord can be jumbled up 351[ist inversion]531[second inversion]135[ root position].

doh is changeable, in a c major chord it is c,in a g major chord it is g,so you always work out your me and so notes from your doh note.

next thing to understand about chords,is that if they share two notes in common with another chord[example cmajor [ceg] and eminor [egb],it may be possible to substitute,or partially substitute one for the other,the most likely scenario for the example given, would be if the melody,is either an e or g note,because those notes are common to both chords.

Its like learning a whole new language. lol!

[CaryK]

might i suggest the use of a metrognome for the tune you put on sound lantern,take it real slow about 70,.

some people cant get on with them, but its worth a try.

with chords you need to understand how a chord is made up,if you understand tonic solfa,it is relatively easy,a major chord is made up of do me and soh. 1 3 5 of the major scale,to get a minor chord me is flattened a semi tone.

a chord can be jumbled up 351[ist inversion]531[second inversion]135[ root position].

doh is changeable, in a c major chord it is c,in a g major chord it is g,so you always work out your me and so notes from your doh note.

next thing to understand about chords,is that if they share two notes in common with another chord[example cmajor [ceg] and eminor [egb],it may be possible to substitute,or partially substitute one for the other,the most likely scenario for the example given, would be if the melody,is either an e or g note,because those notes are common to both chords.

this is an over simplification,but it should get you started.

www.dickmiles.com

 

Dick, that is as nice and concise a summary of some basic music theory that I've ever come across. Thanks for posting your explanation. A lot of information in music theory articles and books goes over my head. Your post brings it down to a nice beginner's level. I appreciate it. Thanks.