Choosing The 'right' Buttons On Anglo...

[Azalin]

Here's a question for people who got lessons with good anglo teachers.

 

Do you use most buttons, meaning both high B, push on the left or pull on the B, both A on the left side, push on the accidental and pull on the C row, both C# if you have both, etc, based on a specific tune requirement?

 

The reason I'm asking is that since I started playing I tried to use a single fingering, mostly the C row on the left side and C and G on the right side, but I always knew there was something wrong with my phrasing, lots of phrases without the required jumpiness, what I call dead music, or some phrases too hard to play because the same finger would do too much work, often playing two different buttons in a row.

 

In East Durham, New York in july I pretty much had a revelation. I took lessons for the first time, and it's darn about time, because there were many weaknesses in my playing. I remember Edel Fox saying that if your finger does too moch work, it's because you're doing something wrong. Also, she suggested using the push high D and pull high E on the left G row instead of D/E on the right C row. My classes with Tom Collins has been the most enriching, with all the technique I finally learned to do properly...

 

So I've been practicing three hours a day since then, going through each of my tune and relearning everything, with the 'correct' fingering. I decided not to be lazy and use the buttons I deem 'ideal' in each situation. It makes a big difference, makes all the tunes I re-learned so far be a delight to play, not only easier to play, but sounding better, to my ears anyway.

 

Is it the right way to do it, or should some buttons be avoided? I recently heard that Noel Hill suggests never using the high B on the left G row, but I find it very useful in a couple of tunes where you want to roll that B often.

 

Also, I currently need to learn which buttons to use for each tune, and I really doubt it will ever come naturally. Do you think professionnal players don't need to think about it and find all the right buttons instinctively?

[Greg Jowaisas]

Azalin,

Nice to hear your comments which can remind us all that it always pays to keep on learning and revising no matter our past accomplishments.

 

It was very interesting to attend Noel Hill camp this year. I am blessed to live within 20 minutes of where the Midwest camp is held and this is my 5th camp, the same number of years that i have been playing anglo.

 

I learn new things (just not new tunes) every camp. Noel seemed a bit more mellow this year although just as intense about the music. He addressed our group and one phrase really stood out to me. He said there was no "right" way or "wrong" way to play the concertina but he wanted to share his experience and experiments in learning how to best phrase the music on the instrument. "Use both sides of the instrument; keep the music on the strong fingers; pull the b in most situations...." Noel is very strong on getting beginners rooted in his system and that may be where the "never" and "don't" generalizations come from in commentary about his teaching. Actually he will listen to alternatives. But you had better be able to show how the alternative will aid the phrasing of the music.

 

One year I went to E. Durham as well as Noel Hill camp. First day of class our teacher Michael O Raghallaigh was tentatively asked if it was OK to use the RH pull d.

"Oh sure! It's on the concertina isn't it?!" A number of us exhaled in relief at being given permission to experiment. Next day in class Michael had one of us play. "Yuh know, it would sound a lot better if you pushed the d there." So much for new found freedom. It was subordinated to phrasing and playing the music well. And isn't that what technique is really all about?

 

Noel admitted he had personally been down dead ends and had to relearn ways of playing until "the music he heard and felt started coming out on the instrument". He wants to save us some time and energy by pointing us down the road it took him so many years to find. It all leads to good music.

 

Aren't we all lucky to have an opportunity to experience great teachers like Noel, and Edel and Tim and Geroid and Michael and many others who not only play so well but take the time to anylize their own playing and explain it to others. Each one has a unique way of helping their students but their goal is the same: How to get us and the instrument to phrase and play the music to the best of our abilities.

 

Let's all enjoy the journey.

 

Greg

 

Edited to correct right and left hand dyslexia.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Greg Jowaisas

[Greg Jowaisas]

And in answer to your question about professionals automatically going to the right fingering:

 

It is always an education watching Noel sight read a forgotten tune in class or field a request he hasn't played in years. You can feel his sense of the music opening and going through his toolbox of technique until he is satisfied he has found the best path for the music. Sometimes the process is deliberate and he'll stop and hesitate before deciding on a path and its consequences. Sometimes there is no hesistation to be heard just a grimance or a flicker of a smile as the fingers fall in step with the music. Truly amazing.

 

Greg

[Azalin]

Greg, I really appreciate, both of your posts contain interesting data :-) Now, I'm going to have to investigate with this high B, I've very fond of the newly discovered roll technique using the B/C and D/E buttons on the right side to roll a note you play on the left side... and to do this on a high B I need to use the left one.

 

Now, does it help the phrasing? I wish I could hear Noel, Tim, play Dublin Reel in G and see how they manage to play the tune without the high B on the left, I wonder what they do with the other B to make it interesting enough.

 

Your second post is interesting. This is how it feels to me with my new approach, each tune is like a maze and different directions have to be tried until you find what you deem 'the correct' way to the exit :-) For the past two years I've been lazy and only found the same way through each maze, even though it was often the worse way.

 

PS: I feel like there's about 80% of the choices I make that are 'right', it's abvious to me from my listening to many great concertina players, but there's a 20% I'm not sure about... Should I play these two notes on the pull or pull/push instead... What's better for the phrasing... I will definitely try to meet Tim Collins in november for lessons and rain down on him with questions :-)

Edited August 11, 2008 by Azalin

[wntrmute]

For a fast melody line (ie. ITM, the melody in a Morris tune, etc.) don't use the same finger on two different buttons in a row. This is one of those 'never' things. It's that way on piano, it's that way on a concertina. There are other styles where you may have to (chordal style, slow songs, etc. and even then think twice and three times before doing it and then really think about it some more) but for any kind of dance music, you don't use the same finger on two different keys or buttons in a row. The time it takes to move from one button to the next is probably the same amount of time that you would hold a note at full tempo. (Accompianment is a different thing, obviously -- I'm talking about the melody line.)

 

I am not a good player, by any stretch, but my feeling is that I need to be able to use every alternative when it is needed by the music. You should be comfortable with using both hands' B/C and D/E buttons in both directions. You should be able to use all three G/A buttons on the left hand, depending on the flow of the music, the air in your bellows, and what your fingers are doing. You should be able to use all of the G's and A's on the right hand. It may seem like there's extra ones you don't really need, but there aren't. If anything there's not enough. There are times the push B, C and squeeky E on the right hand may work, there's times you'll want to pull those.

 

Then again, I'm a n00b. So 'cum granulo salis,' as they say in Rome.

[Greg Jowaisas]

Azalin,

I'm not sure if i understand which melody note you would like to ornament.

 

RH high b (G row 2nd button push) might get an adjacent 3rd button d.

 

Triplets involving the b an octave lower: b, c, d or b, c#, d are generally played in the same bellows direction and begin with the pushed LH b.

 

A number of teachers including Noel and Michael hand out sheets with suggestions for crans, cuts and 3 note rolls. It doesn't help make them easier to accomplish with the tunes but it is a handy reference. You might ask Tim next time.

 

Greg

[Larryo]

Although it might seem like a trite answer, the trick is to listen to this music until your ear hurts. And not always concertinas.Ceili bands such as Tulla or Kilfenora are great for getting that "lift" or rhythm into our subconscious. It is then that the phrases will almost answer themselves. It is also important to bear in mind that the different regional styles or any one particular player's influences will also hugely influence how a note is played.Noel Hill is hugely influenced by piping technique or sounds and so will naturally prefer maybe what some might consider a chopped sound. The choice he makes in buttons might also be influenced by his need to get a certain sound whilst Chris Droney on the other hand will get his sound by his choice of buttons. Another example would the playing of polkas and slides in true Sliabh Luachra/Kerry style. Because they have a certain lift to them, you might find that this is best achieved on the G row style of playing because you can break each note with a bellows change which will automatically give you that "lift" instead of trying to "make it happen" with all sorts of other manoeuvres.The "lift" of this style is probably why C#/D boxes are preferred to B/C in that region and by players of that style, because slides and polkas played without the chop sound dead and there is no way that they could be danced to. Similarly in fiddle playing, to play in say Donegal style will require a certain type of bow work which would be totally different to say how Paddy Canny would use his bow.

Because Micheál favours a lot of chords and octave playing, he in turn might on occasions opt for buttons on the right to give himself that sound. And in the true playing of trad, it is always nice to change things around, so you might prefer a certain sound in the jig or reel first time around and then in the second half you might well do the opposite- either to give you a different sound or to give you different options. And then on occasions, it doesn't really matter- it's not that important what way you play, say three of four notes, it's of no big importance.

In some ways, those players who have decided who they want to play like, or like some who want to recreate the sound of the pipes,or their own sound have a more clear road. They know the sound they want and they play and use the buttons accordingly. However if in the morning we are chilled out to Mary McNamara and in the afternoon are driven wild by the rush of sounds from say Niall Vallelly or Noel Hill, then that's when the craic starts !!!!

[david_boveri]

arg, i lost my reply...

 

in the dublin reel in G, i would use push B's on the left hand. i use noel's system. i cannot vouch for what he would definitely do, but i would guess he would do the same.

 

if you want to learn how noel does it so bad, i would recommend you go to his camp. we would be glad to have you. the frustrating thing about other camps is that there is so much going on, too many different types of instruments, too many sessions. it is hard to go in depth into anything, or to get anything long term. at noel's camp, you learn much more--we learn two tunes a day, and are expected to play each tune by the next class. you have the time to completely relearn your fingering system, as well as get a good handle on 8 new tunes, since there are no distractions like at the other camps. i did it my first year (as well as learn how to learn by ear, as noel didnt give the advanced class music that year), and i have seen many people do the same. it is nice because you dont leave thinking, "boy, i wish i knew how to approach tunes," but thinking, "boy, i have to master this new approach that i have learned." there are intricacies to noel's system, and any system, that take more than a year to learn, but his system is very solid, and his teaching even better, so i would recommend you attend the camp, if these are the sort of questions you have. especially if you like his fingering system, it's a win win situation--you can learn his fingering, in depth, and learn at a much deeper level that is possible at other camps.

 

we also are given so much to learn, that it usually takes more than a year to master what he gives us and expects us to work on.

 

that being said, i do like other camps. i go to them, when i can. i just dont learn as much. we do have fun, at noel's camps, too. and although no distractions are provided, we are able to concoct quite a few. just ask greg how often randy and i take up his time by making him talk to us about turkey basters into student's minds, wine cork openers, and concertina-reed experiments!

 

Azalin,

I'm not sure if i understand which melody note you would like to ornament.

 

RH high b (G row 2nd button push) might get an adjacent 3rd button d.

 

Triplets involving the b an octave lower: b, c, d or b, c#, d are generally played in the same bellows direction and begin with the pushed LH b.

 

A number of teachers including Noel and Michael hand out sheets with suggestions for crans, cuts and 3 note rolls. It doesn't help make them easier to accomplish with the tunes but it is a handy reference. You might ask Tim next time.

 

Greg

 

yup! noel uses push b a lot. but, for bcd, noel usually uses pull b and pull c. c# is as you described. i use push b less than noel, as i am a weirdo, and use jeffries layout. although for the key of A i am starting to want a push c#, first button, so i can go from pull a to push c#. i just dont like pull c#. maybe on my carroll....

[tombilly]

Looking at the original question, I think maybe part has been missed. Azalin had played mainly c row left and c & g on right, maybe using about 7-8 buttons for 95% of the time. When he wanted to play a G or B etc., he had mostly one option and it was 'easy' to train the muscle memory to get that note.

 

However, when you are playing across the rows and varying whether you use a push or pull for a given note, it gets harder for the brain to handle. You really should be able to play music without having to think too much about it, just like speech. I often find myself playing on one row or the other when I should have switched - my autopilot tends to favour that as a means to hitting the note rather than switching to another row.

 

But to resolve this, I think it's all a matter of practice - you figure out what style of playing you like - you look at your tunes more slowly and see what is the most efficient way to play the phrases. You play these and over time they become second nature. Since music and ITM in particular is made up of many similar phrases and patterns of notes, it follows that the more tunes you learn, the more phrases fall under your fingers and the easiest way to play passages becomes second nature. That is why good musicians play so effortlessly and pick up new tunes so quickly on the fly .. they've heard it all before.

 

I too was getting some concertina lessons during the summer and I asked our tutor about their general approach to fingering a tune as I was looking the tunes we had done and what was suggested. Their approach seemed in the main to use the C row LH and C & G on RH as you described for the 'default' choice. I think this is because the C row is most comfortable to reach. However they would go to the G row LH or row of accidentals, frequently to hit a note for various reasons (1) the get a triplet running same direction insofar as poss. e.g. EF#G (top row), BCD etc. (2) to balance the air, reverse the bellows etc. and (3) for convenience, say you had just played B inside row LH, and the following notes were a d or e, you might just use the adjacent button to follow on etc. They also mentioned they rarely if ever used the A/G button on the G row, LH as it's a duplicate of the normal one - they would of course use the A/G on the top row as it offers a reversal.

Edited August 11, 2008 by tombilly

[michael sam wild]

I find all this useful as I've gone from mouth organ to melodeon to Anglo. My 'default' mode is along the rows as for the gob-iron but I've trained myself on 2 row box and Anglo to cross rows. Now I go for smoothness in ornamentation but still relish the bounce of push/pull so I've developed a hybrid approach and with the help of my button diagram in ABc mode have more or less memorized the possibilities. Apart from the fixed buttons of E,Fsharp and fsharp and csharp (and g to an extent) I go where the button and bellows action seems best. I stick to the layout on my concertina and don't want to retune any reeds.

 

I'm only just beginning to appreciate the different sounds on buttons close to the body and further out and the influence of the hands as chambers etc but that may come with more experience. At 68 I'm still experimenting and welcome any advice but eveyone has their own system so I take what I find helps drive the tunes. I listen to any kind of instrument and play along to records if I can't get to sessions, and I let the tunes suggest the buttons and ornaments. Now I'm exploring bending notes

 

I don't think any of this has compromised my own style which has evolved since I was a kid, just augmented it as has playing fiddle, flute, whistle and mandolin (I have never had the time til now to put as much time in on any instrument as I have the Anglo and it has taken over my musical life!)

 

I have always been a singer, diddler and mouth whistler and go through tunes a lot like that to choose the ornaments or graces, sometimes I'll even commit them to tape to analyse them but mostly it's in my head or I'll put daft words to the tunes to help fix them and the phrasing.

The Anglo is another instrument to help express what I feel and I'd probaly evolve a useful system if all I had was a marimba or one string fiddle.

Mike

[Azalin]

Thanks for the replies, the info is very useful. Will read everything in details maybe during the day at work

 

Azalin,

I'm not sure if i understand which melody note you would like to ornament.

 

RH high b (G row 2nd button push) might get an adjacent 3rd button d.

 

I just realized I made a mistake by saying "second octave" high B, I guess I'm talking about first octave B, the one you can pull on the C row right side first button, or push on the G row left side. I realize it might be the reason why I heard Noel said he only pushes it, if we're talking about the real high B second octave on the G row right side.

 

So, do most teachers say they use both Bs first octave, the one on the push and the one on the pull? Is there one that's being used a bit more? I know it depends on the tune, just wondering if there's a "main" one. For example, Edel said the "main" high D/E would the push D pull E on the G row left side, "main" meaning it will cover most situations.

 

(I'm a bit pissed off at myself, I should have asked these questions 3 or 4 years ago when I started)

Edited August 11, 2008 by Azalin

[dwinterfield]

I'm a Noel Hill camper, with my experience modified by several other teachers.

 

The RH pull B is my "primary" B. I tend to cross rows on the D. If the tune is ascending with a D following a LH G or A or a RH B, I'll pull the D and play any subsequent higher notes on the G row. I'll look to play a LH push D on descending parts of tunes.

 

I'm pretty sure Noel would say I use the RH pull D too much, not to mention my use of the RH push C & E.

 

One option to keep in mind is the LH 3rd finger pull A which allows an easier LH push D.

 

I agree there's no "right" fingering. Some fingerings are preferable because they may give a better "Irish" sound, but it always has to fit the rhythm. I'm thinking on one tune in particular that will sound more Irish with a particular fingering. But if I use that fingering, it won't sound Irish at all because I can't hold the rhythm. So, for now, I'll forego a bit of Irishness in favor of a steady ryhthm. Maybe a year from now, I'll be better able to play it as I'd like to.

[tombilly]

Azalin - my wife taped Micheal O'Raghallaigh's discussion during her fiddle class in Achill. He was going around all the classes, doing a wee presentation on the concertina. Anyway one of the things he mentions in reply to a question is that he reckons anglo is about 60% left hand and 40% right hand - he was commenting that box players often have trouble on anglo as they have strong and agile right hands, also that left handed people sometimes get on better on anglo for same reason.

 

He also gave some interesting variations in style and possibilties using Connaughtman's Rambles, with several examples, including double noting the entire tune. He gave another tune Bellharbour Reel I think, in the 'Chris Droney' style of mainly sticking to the rows and then in 'modern' style, cross rowing etc. - all very illuminating and you're left with the impresssion that he uses practically every button combination at will and often together, chording and double noting etc.

Edited August 11, 2008 by tombilly

[Lawrence Reeves]

On my instruments the pull B is a more robust sounding choice. If I were playing a tune with a long note, it would almost always be the pull. In the reel "The Golden Keyboard" I use both Bs to achieve the melody. At the beginning phrase starting on a pull B, when I get to the next phrase bouncing off of the B I use push B. On the jig "The Mooncoin" I use push B to navigate around the C#B A in the beginning.

[Larryo]

With regards the B on right or left, from all the asking I have done, I gather that the B on right is mostly played except for-

A)when you have to go there from a high F# or G( although if you were to use the G on the middle row left side this would let you off the hook). A tune like "The Glass Of Beer" would be an example

B)In the second part or "turn " of some tunes where the run of notes would be B, high D and this will give you the option of putting in the C# on occasions for variation. The second part of "turn" of the "Mountain Top" reel is a great place to see how the B and indeed high D on either side can work and how you have to use both if you want to get in the BC#high D triplet.

C) Or in tunes like Duke Of Leinster,Humours of Lissadell or any of those tunes where you go from high E to a B roll. By playing the high E on the middle row right side and playing the B on the inside row left side, you give yourself the option of getting either a B roll using the high E, C on middle right as the means to "make " the roll or indeed the more modern(?) way of playing the B and tapping the right side of the concertina.( Although I think Aogán who contributes here might sometimes use the B on the right side and does a nifty trick with alternating first two fingers on right hand to get his roll as does Niall Vallelly) but my direct experience is the other way

 

I am sure there are other examples but I hope that is of help to get you going

[Larryo]

Cross posted there with Lawrence and the Golden Keyboard is a great example where the two Bs are used

[Azalin]

One option to keep in mind is the LH 3rd finger pull A which allows an easier LH push D.

 

Argh, you're right! When I want to use the push D I now use the push A on the accident row, I didnt think of this third A on the G row... Sigh, one more thing to think about

 

Great tip, thanks!

[dwinterfield]

One option to keep in mind is the LH 3rd finger pull A which allows an easier LH push D.

 

Argh, you're right! When I want to use the push D I now use the push A on the accident row, I didnt think of this third A on the G row... Sigh, one more thing to think about

 

Great tip, thanks!

 

Happy to share since I've been using the LH 3rd finger A for all of a week. It does open a lot of possibilities. The push G on the same button will likely also become more useful.