Richard Morse Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 One of the notes on one of my concertinas bends all by itself - esp when the bellows is at the end of its close. Going up almost half a tone in value. The usual cause for this is that the bellows interferes with the reed. It doesn't actually have to touch it, but be close enough that it the air path is distorted. It the bellows *does* touch the reed, the reed will have a distinctive rrrrrr-sound and ramp in up pitch quickly and considerably. Open up the concertina and check out the bellows near the reed in question. You'll probably notice that the card is bending inwards more than it should (may be delaminating), or that its hinge is coming apart, or that the gusset is intruding, etc. -- Rich -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HallelujahAl! Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 One of the notes on one of my concertinas bends all by itself - esp when the bellows is at the end of its close. Going up almost half a tone in value. The usual cause for this is that the bellows interferes with the reed. It doesn't actually have to touch it, but be close enough that it the air path is distorted. It the bellows *does* touch the reed, the reed will have a distinctive rrrrrr-sound and ramp in up pitch quickly and considerably. Open up the concertina and check out the bellows near the reed in question. You'll probably notice that the card is bending inwards more than it should (may be delaminating), or that its hinge is coming apart, or that the gusset is intruding, etc. -- Rich -- Thanks for this Richard - I shall get stuck in immediately having been putting it off for quite some time now. Its amazing what one will do to avoid playing a particular button when one has enough reason! And I'd really like to get back to playing my instrument normally again - not that I've anything against music that demands note bending! Your answer also helps me to understand why bellows depth is a significant issue. I've often wondered why many bellows folds were'nt deeper as it would surely give a greater extension and possibly power. But obviously (now) I understand why there is an optimal limit -which would be to prevent said reed distortion?? Thanks again! CaptainAL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HallelujahAl! Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 As an after thought, - wouldn't that be an answer? Get deeper bellows on the concertina to 'enable' reed distortion aka note-bending and other such phenomena? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 I've often wondered why many bellows folds were'nt deeper as it would surely give a greater extension and possibly power. But obviously (now) I understand why there is an optimal limit -which would be to prevent said reed distortion?? There's a lot going on with bellows - depth, number of sides, number of folds, size, flexibility.... that doesn't have anything to do with reeds. The bellows frame depth is key to keeping the bellows far enough from the reeds to preclude interference - so if you do have interference problems it's usually something wrong with the bellows itself (coming apart, or perhaps it's a replacement bellows and the person building/installing it did a poor job) or possibly a not-deep-enough bellows frame (usually due to a novice concertina maker). -- Rich -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippa Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Alan, you mentioned Noel Hill using his hand to alter the sound of a note; do you know if he does that to bend a note, or just to alter the tonal quality? I'm inspired and daunted in equal measure by this thread! And as soon as I've finished work tonight I'll have to try some of them out ... I'm a very slow learner and still get sidetracked for hours deciding which combination of notes on which row will sound best for a particular tune; I know it makes a big difference whether you play e.g. the left hand inner row push G, whose pad lies under your wrist and which has a very different tone from the left hand middle row G. whose pad is clear of the fingers, and so on. (And that's without taking account of bellow direction and phrasing for the notes before and after!) I hadn't thought of moving my hand to change the tone independently of choosing bellows direction, brightness etc. back to work to get finished quickly and go happily mad trying to bend notes - Uri Geller has nothing on concertina players apparently! Pippa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Day Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 Alan, you mentioned Noel Hill using his hand to alter the sound of a note; do you know if he does that to bend a note, or just to alter the tonal quality? I'm inspired and daunted in equal measure by this thread! And as soon as I've finished work tonight I'll have to try some of them out ... I'm a very slow learner and still get sidetracked for hours deciding which combination of notes on which row will sound best for a particular tune; I know it makes a big difference whether you play e.g. the left hand inner row push G, whose pad lies under your wrist and which has a very different tone from the left hand middle row G. whose pad is clear of the fingers, and so on. (And that's without taking account of bellow direction and phrasing for the notes before and after!) I hadn't thought of moving my hand to change the tone independently of choosing bellows direction, brightness etc. back to work to get finished quickly and go happily mad trying to bend notes - Uri Geller has nothing on concertina players apparently! Pippa Hallo Pippa I took that observation on Noel Hill from another posting elsewhere .It was only thought that Noel changed the note sound using his hand ,but the person posting was not sure how he did it. I was just working out how it may be possible . If you find out anything Pippa let us know. It is a subject I have never even thought about until I actually posted it. See you at Bradfield .If you plan on having one of the pies at the Royal Dungworth do not eat for two days before, or you will never finish it. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I'm not particularly impressed with note bending capabilities of accordion/concertina. Why such attention? Judging by Youtube clips and the CDs "I" have, biggest problem for EC players is simply keeping the rhythm, and AC players are so engrossed with choosing push or pull and which button to use, that mostly the elementary techniques, like attack, crispiness, decay, loud/quiet are not tended to. In comparison Bending and Capping are minimally promising techniques. Sure, if you add the volume and half close the pad - you'll get bent note on the low reed, something not usually recommended. I guess it may bend the reed in and destroy the gapping. If you are eager to play blues and bend - why not use harmonica? Capping the vents in hope to alter the sound is interesting, but before I heard it, I don't believe it. Sounds like an urban myth. Listening to Noel Hill doesn't give me impression that he is playing a violin. Still rather unwavering sound, nasal in quality, honky and unmistakably concertinish. The only feasible effect is, as Rich Morse noted, to use push/pulling with more of a design, rather than out of necessity. So pressure on bellows and attack on the button are your "only" tools, but it's worth spending lifetime mastering them. Using grace notes to emulate glissando (?) is interesting, but it's not "special" technique, it's as old as concertina itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippa Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 "Capping the vents in hope to alter the sound is interesting, but before I heard it, I don't believe it. Sounds like an urban myth." I disagree - if you try it you can definitely hear a difference; I've just been experimenting with playing first a single note and then two or three together on the same row, and lifting my hand slightly so it's further away from the keys, and then letting it return. There's a definite change in tone, particularly with two or three notes together. I'm not sure I like the effect, but it's possible. From my very brief experiment I'd say the most benefit would be in improving bellows control - keeping the pressure steady while moving your hand is a bit like the old challenge of patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time! It's just a logical extension of one of the basic options on an Anglo, i.e. choosing which row you play a note on according to its tone - a brighter sound (with more harmonics) from the notes which aren't shielded by your hand or arm, a more muted sound from those which are. Similarly, you change the tone by resting the end on your knee, or lifting it. I think I'll probably stick with the basic techniques for the moment; there's still a lot I could do in terms of playing for dancing by improving on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippa Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Alan, you mentioned Noel Hill using his hand to alter the sound of a note; do you know if he does that to bend a note, or just to alter the tonal quality? I'm inspired and daunted in equal measure by this thread! And as soon as I've finished work tonight I'll have to try some of them out ... I'm a very slow learner and still get sidetracked for hours deciding which combination of notes on which row will sound best for a particular tune; I know it makes a big difference whether you play e.g. the left hand inner row push G, whose pad lies under your wrist and which has a very different tone from the left hand middle row G. whose pad is clear of the fingers, and so on. (And that's without taking account of bellow direction and phrasing for the notes before and after!) I hadn't thought of moving my hand to change the tone independently of choosing bellows direction, brightness etc. back to work to get finished quickly and go happily mad trying to bend notes - Uri Geller has nothing on concertina players apparently! Pippa Hallo Pippa I took that observation on Noel Hill from another posting elsewhere .It was only thought that Noel changed the note sound using his hand ,but the person posting was not sure how he did it. I was just working out how it may be possible . If you find out anything Pippa let us know. It is a subject I have never even thought about until I actually posted it. See you at Bradfield .If you plan on having one of the pies at the Royal Dungworth do not eat for two days before, or you will never finish it. Al I'll bring my doggy bag! Actually I'm still not sure about Bradfield - been a bit under the weather and not sure about the journey, particularly as I wouldn't be able to leave till the Saturday morning. And I'm a bit daunted by all those concertina players, when I know I play the Anglo the wrong way myself Pippa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterT Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 And I'm a bit daunted by all those concertina players, when I know I play the Anglo the wrong way myself I've been hearing that for 23 years, and it's never stopped you before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippa Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 And I'm a bit daunted by all those concertina players, when I know I play the Anglo the wrong way myself I've been hearing that for 23 years, and it's never stopped you before! Like I said, I'm a slow learner - it takes a while for the message to really sink in! Pippa good heavens is it really 23 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterT Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 And I'm a bit daunted by all those concertina players, when I know I play the Anglo the wrong way myself I've been hearing that for 23 years, and it's never stopped you before! Like I said, I'm a slow learner - it takes a while for the message to really sink in! Pippa good heavens is it really 23 years? I first saw you at Farnham Folk Day, 1985, when Alistair Anderson "hauled" you out of the audience to play on stage with him, then we ended up comparing 36 key Wheatstones at Sidmouth of the same year. Seems like only yesterday .... well, maybe the day before! Regards, Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 "Capping the vents in hope to alter the sound is interesting, but before I heard it, I don't believe it. Sounds like an urban myth." I disagree - if you try it you can definitely hear a difference Absolutely there is a difference! But messing with hand location while playing is not practical, all the effort for minimal results. And don't mess with ergonomics, you engage too much in this circus, next thing you know is that medical insurance doesn't pick all of your expences. Another thing is if your ends have buffles on them, capping shouldn't have any effect. I think concertina player must pay attention to harmonium and harpsichords playing techniques. No dynamics whatsoever, yet, some players are capable of great expressiveness. What's their secret? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 "Capping the vents in hope to alter the sound is interesting, but before I heard it, I don't believe it. Sounds like an urban myth." I disagree - if you try it you can definitely hear a difference Absolutely there is a difference! But messing with hand location while playing is not practical, all the effort for minimal results. And don't mess with ergonomics, you engage too much in this circus, next thing you know is that medical insurance doesn't pick all of your expences. Another thing is if your ends have buffles on them, capping shouldn't have any effect. I think concertina player must pay attention to harmonium and harpsichords playing techniques. No dynamics whatsoever, yet, some players are capable of great expressiveness. What's their secret? i think the way i look at it you dont need any dynamics to add any expressiveness, but if your instrument has them, you should use it. this is because, the same sort of energy you will put into a harpsichord as a piano will not change the volume, but it will change the spacing and timing of a note. my uncle plays the pipes, and he says that a slight change in length sounds like a change in volume, even though it is not. when i play the whistle, i will often pop my finger hard off a note or hard on, not because it changes the sound, but because the note will pop up with more energy even if i do not change anything about blowing pressure. i know you were not saying we should not use dynamics, but trying to focus us on musical fundamentals. i say all that, because i too realized a long time ago that there is something missing if you are focusing very much on all these things, because a set of pipes can sound more lively than instruments with large, dynamic capabilities. in short, their secret is good rhythm, good rhythm, good rhythm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Day Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 I think this is rather like a car,there are a lot gadgets in there that you never use, but it is nice to know what they do. Come to Bradfield Pippa nothing to fear and you will be well looked after. Anyway I need some support. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 in short, their secret is good rhythm, good rhythm, good rhythm. Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct. And I'm not born with that in my bones. It's amazing, how much work I have to put into something, that is completely natural for others. Darn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaryK Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 (edited) in short, their secret is good rhythm, good rhythm, good rhythm. Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct. And I'm not born with that in my bones. It's amazing, how much work I have to put into something, that is completely natural for others. Darn it. I agree and commiserate with you. It is a standard joke in my family that I have absolutely no rhythm and never had. I can partially compensate for it with lots of focused practice, but never completely overcome what I think is a genetic predisposition toward non-rhythmical response to aural stimulus (sounds like a good doctoral dissertation doesn't it); i.e. "got no rhythm". When clapping along with others while listening to a tune or singing along with it, my wife will often subtly separate and lower my hands, because my irregular clapping is throwing off others. Controlling my rhythm (and metronomes do me no good) is my biggest challenge in playing. That may be why I'm often drawn to playing slower pieces, because I can use rhythm changes based on how I want to express a certain phrase of the tune. I find it tough to play any tune though, fast or slow, with exactly the same rhythm twice. Edited July 25, 2008 by CaryK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I agree and commiserate with you. Here's a good cheat for you: Walking and playing to the rhythm of your steps. It only worked for some minutes with my bayan(15 kilos), but with concertina it may actually be a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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