Sound Difference Anglo Vs English

[chiton1]

The topic on how to change the sound of your concertina, made me want to put this question forward.

The difference in sound between AC's and EC's are in my opinion not due to the fact that Anglo's are played differently, but there is something in the manufacture that sets them apart. Now I am no expert at all (I only play the EC), but I thought that the same reeds were used in both systems and the only difference (at first sight) is that the shape of the reed chambers are quite different. There may be more about it? If anyone has any ideas I would be very interested to hear them.

Hermann

[Robin Madge]

A friend of mine has been recording numbers of different concertinas and analysing the sound using Audacity (a free PC program available on the internet). He has found tht there is more difference between reeds by different makers than whether they are in an Anglo or an English. There will be differences depending on the size of the chamber they are in, position on the reed-pan, materials of the reed-pan etc. as well of course.

 

Robin Madge

[Richard Morse]

I thought that the same reeds were used in both systems

Not at all. There is considerable variation in concertina reeds: scale length (about 25% from short to long scale), hardness (about 25% Rc between steel reeds), taper (from parallel-sided to quite trapezoidal), undercut (from plumb vent to very splayed - sometimes with two angles and tip undercut as well!) and reed set (or "voicing" - the amount the reed is above the vent/plate at rest, which also includes the shape of the entire length of reed - as while the "norm" is to have a planar bottom to angle up uniformly from butt to the tip - reeds can also rise to set height and then be parallel to the vent/plate to the tip, or curve up and then down at the tip, or have a twist set.

 

All of these parameters affect the tonal qualities and response of the reeds.

 

the only difference (at first sight) is that the shape of the reed chambers are quite different.

 

That too with the major difference being the parallel vs. radial pattern. There's also the depth of the chambers and the position of the head wall (the end of the chamber closest to the tip of the reed has a very pronounced effect on the tonal and response qualities of the reed).

 

While not technically part of the chamber, the reedpan also has significant effect on reed sound quality and response.

 

analysing the sound using Audacity... He has found tht there is more difference between reeds by different makers than whether they are in an Anglo or an English. There will be differences depending on the size of the chamber they are in, position on the reed-pan, materials of the reed-pan etc. as well of course.

I hope that he is removing the affect differences of chamber/position/materials/etc. from the testing, possibly by using one setup and swapping the reeds into that same setup for sampling? It would be great if he had several setups (a Jeffries, pre-1860's Wheatstone English, 1920's Aeola, etc. in which to swap reeds around.

 

-- Rich --

[Anglo-Irishman]

I thought that the same reeds were used in both systems

Not at all. There is considerable variation in concertina reeds: scale length (about 25% from short to long scale), hardness (about 25% Rc between steel reeds), taper (from parallel-sided to quite trapezoidal), undercut (from plumb vent to very splayed - sometimes with two angles and tip undercut as well!) and reed set (or "voicing" - the amount the reed is above the vent/plate at rest, which also includes the shape of the entire length of reed - as while the "norm" is to have a planar bottom to angle up uniformly from butt to the tip - reeds can also rise to set height and then be parallel to the vent/plate to the tip, or curve up and then down at the tip, or have a twist set.

 

All of these parameters affect the tonal qualities and response of the reeds.

 

Rich,

 

So many factors - but the question was about the differnece between 2 concertina systems! Doe the Englishes typically have one combination of these factors, and Anglos another? Or are all those factors encountered in both ECs and Anglos? And if so, how do you explain the perceived difference betwee EC sound and Anglo sound?

 

My anwer to the original question would be that you play an Anglo quite differently from an EC. OK, there are some who play single-line melody on the anglo, but that's not what Anglo is all about, is it? The Anglo is about rich harmonies and chords, not single-line melody or 2-line polyphony, which is what you'll mostly hear on an EC. So obviously they sound totally different!

 

Cheers,

John

[m3838]

The Anglo is about rich harmonies and chords, not single-line melody or 2-line polyphony, which is what you'll mostly hear on an EC. So obviously they sound totally different!

I don't see above examples as correct.

Many play only melodies on Anglos, many use cross row fingering, which is essentially EC style, with alternating sides and smooth bellows action. Many play thick harmonies on EC. I didn't hear much of two-part polyphony on Anglo, but it may be because I didn't hear enough, or people don't buy AC to play 2 part polypnony, not because it's more difficult to do.

I think the difference in sound is in the way it's played, big part of which is the way it's held. EC strap (back to much debated topic) is less allowing for push/pull and dynamics, so Anglo sounds more rowbust and less whimpy. It's push/pull note decay serves as surrogate dynamics, and having to pick the buttons in sometimes hectic manner forces phrazings, that a player would have not chosen, has he/she played deliberately.

Short span of bellows is forcing surrogate phrazing on EC as well, and AC can beat it with the air button and push/pull options, supported by more firm grip.

All together makes these instruments sound very different. Like large PA and small one row accordion.

[hjcjones]

If you listen to a tune played on both systems, they will probably sound different because of different styles of playing.

 

If you were to listen to a single note played on each system, would you be able to tell the difference? They might sound different because of differences in the reeds or reed-pan etc, but could you consistently tell an Anglo from an English?

[David Levine]

It was my post that started the "changing the sound" thread. I might not have understood what Wim said:

The primary function of the reed chamber is to get the maximum amplitude and response from the reed.

Reeds produce the harmonic spectrum, not the chamber. They produce these frequencies by 'chopping' the air flow that passes through the frame. Reeds do not vibrate!

 

I took this to mean that the reed is much more important than the chamber. The difference in chamber sizes on my concertinas seem to have more to do with accomodating the size of the reed than with having much effect on the sound. I took Wim's comment to mean that changing the size of the chamber, or lining it with felt, will only have a very minimal effect on the sound.

 

I did place some synthetic baize directly under the metal grill on my Anglo and the effect was to make the instrument much quieter. It also felt much less responsive so I took it out. I may try again with a lighter fabric.

[Richard Morse]

So many factors - but the question was about the differnece between 2 concertina systems!

My reading of the question is: *not considering* the way the systems are played or the way the reeds are made... what accounts for the difference in sound? The questioner notices only a chamber construction difference and asks if this accounts for it or are there other things?

 

My anwer to the original question would be that you play an Anglo quite differently from an EC

He specifically stated that he thought that the sound difference was *not* due to the way they were played and asked about a physical quality of the boxes that could account for sound differences. So I addressed them.

 

Doe the Englishes typically have one combination of these factors, and Anglos another?

Pretty much yes but not overwhelmingly so. (We need to restrict the boxes under consideration to vintage concertinas of better than rock-bottom quality).

 

Or are all those factors encountered in both ECs and Anglos?

Virtually not. Well, I've never seen or heard of an anlgo with long scale reeds or an English with 60 Rc reed tongue hardness.

 

And if so, how do you explain the perceived difference betwee EC sound and Anglo sound?.

I would say mostly by the way they're played. But anglos can also be played smoothly and with less dynamics and Englishes (and especially duets) can be played to be indistinguishable from an anglo. Not on any and all tunes mind you! But selected ones - very yes.

 

My anwer to the original question would be that you play an Anglo quite differently from an EC. OK, there are some who play single-line melody on the anglo, but that's not what Anglo is all about, is it?

Actually, most people on this forum and virtually all Irish concertina players would probably disagree with you.

 

The Anglo is about rich harmonies and chords, not single-line melody or 2-line polyphony, which is what you'll mostly hear on an EC. So obviously they sound totally different!

Your experiences with concertina differs a lot from mine (and most likely many other people). Most of the concertina people I know and listen to do *not* play Irish style (sure - I like the stuff but it's probably only 10% of the concertina spectrum I encounter) and most English players tend to play single-line melody with an occasional partial chord. About the only time I encounter 2-line polyphony is from duet players.

 

-- Rich --

[Anglo-Irishman]

My anwer to the original question would be that you play an Anglo quite differently from an EC. OK, there are some who play single-line melody on the anglo, but that's not what Anglo is all about, is it?

Actually, most people on this forum and virtually all Irish concertina players would probably disagree with you.

 

OK, Rich,

 

I'll put the heretical question: why would one invest in a bi-sonoric, diatonic concertina if he's not primarily interested in full, easy-to use harmonies?

 

 

Cheers,

John

[Richard Morse]

I'll put the heretical question: why would one invest in a bi-sonoric, diatonic concertina if he's not primarily interested in full, easy-to use harmonies?

Most people wanting to play traditional Irish music on the concertina use an anglo because it's the "traditional" type of concertina used for such. Even though an anglo is capable of "rich harmonies and chords" and "full, easy-to use harmonies" the Irish traditional way to play is single-line melodies (plus "ornaments" and the occasional extra note or partial chord).

 

-- Rich --

[MUTT]

I'll put the heretical question: why would one invest in a bi-sonoric, diatonic concertina if he's not primarily interested in full, easy-to use harmonies?

Most people wanting to play traditional Irish music on the concertina use an anglo because it's the "traditional" type of concertina used for such. Even though an anglo is capable of "rich harmonies and chords" and "full, easy-to use harmonies" the Irish traditional way to play is single-line melodies (plus "ornaments" and the occasional extra note or partial chord).

 

-- Rich --

 

It's about the rhythm, daddy-o, the rhythm!

[Stephen Chambers]

... I've never seen or heard of an anglo with long scale reeds ...

You'd find them in Lachenal "New Model" and high-end 30-key Wheatstone Anglos, though not the 40-key ones as there isn't enough room. Indeed, one of the best-sounding 30-key ebony-ended Wheatstones that I ever came across had enormously long reeds. They were marked for F/C, but the story that came with the instrument was that the original owner had sent it up to Wheatstone's to get it changed to play with his "mate's bugle" (they sent the bugle too!), and when it came back it was in Bb/F with (apparently) new reeds in the original shoes.

 

On the other hand, I've had a Jeffries English, with their typical reeds, and didn't like it at all.

[Stephen Chambers]

I'll put the heretical question: why would one invest in a bi-sonoric, diatonic concertina if he's not primarily interested in full, easy-to use harmonies?

Most people wanting to play traditional Irish music on the concertina use an anglo because it's the "traditional" type of concertina used for such. Even though an anglo is capable of "rich harmonies and chords" and "full, easy-to use harmonies" the Irish traditional way to play is single-line melodies (plus "ornaments" and the occasional extra note or partial chord).

I smile sometimes at the way some of today's players of Irish-style Anglo denigrate the English concertina, whilst using the Anglo's alternative fingerings to try to play melody more smoothly without changing bellows direction - and hence more like an English.

 

It seems to defeat the object...

[Anglo-Irishman]

I'll put the heretical question: why would one invest in a bi-sonoric, diatonic concertina if he's not primarily interested in full, easy-to use harmonies?

Most people wanting to play traditional Irish music on the concertina use an anglo because it's the "traditional" type of concertina used for such. Even though an anglo is capable of "rich harmonies and chords" and "full, easy-to use harmonies" the Irish traditional way to play is single-line melodies (plus "ornaments" and the occasional extra note or partial chord).

I smile sometimes at the way some of today's players of Irish-style Anglo denigrate the English concertina, whilst using the Anglo's alternative fingerings to try to play melody more smoothly without changing bellows direction - and hence more like an English.

 

It seems to defeat the object...

 

Stephen,

That's precisely why I put the question. If I want to play jigs and hornpipes in D, the fiddle or the GDAE tenor banjo are so much more suitable and easier than a C/G Anglo. The decorations come automatically. On te hother hand, having an Anglo, I would think it a pity not to use those handy chords for accompaniments or fully-fledged solo instrumental pieces.

 

I suppose it's partly a question of how and where your musical personality developed. I'm an Irishman, but not from West Clare. So my very early childhood memories of the concertina are of the Salvation Army Captain leading choruses on his Triumph duet (though I didn't know then that there are concertinas and concertinas!) The concertina never went out of my head, and at 18 I asked for one for my birthday. All that was available in Belfast back then (c. 1964) was an East German 20-button Anglo, which didn't have the hard timbre I remembered, but was super for accompanying songs - once I even used it for leading the hymns in a small country church (déjà vu!)

We had always had a fiddle in the house, so when I took the notion to play a dance tune, I automatically reached for it, and left the concertina in its box. This just seemed the natural way to go!

 

You're the historian, and this is just my uneducated opinion: but could it be that the Anglo got into Irish dance music because people had bought them for other kinds of music - e.g. drawing-room ballads, music-hall songs, popular Irish songs - and when this music became less popular, tried to protect their investment by re-using the Anglo for what was, in effect, fiddle music?

Other aspects of traditional music, such as unison playing or richly decorated solo singing, have as much an economic as an aesthetic basis - if your social unit can afford only one instrument, then that instrument has to be played in a style that can stand alone, unaccomanied and unharmonised. Hence the decorations and the rhythmic structures of the melodies. And if your Dad's old Anglo is the only instument you've got, rather than investing in a new flute or fiddle ... (economic) necessity is the mother of invention

 

Cheers,

John