Midi Concertinas

[Dave Weinstein]

There are a number of reasons electronic versions of Concertinas would be nice to have:

 

Layout experimentations: It's a lot easier to try a layout change (whether it is changing one or two notes, or a complete new design) when it can be tested instantly and with essentially no additional cost. Note I am assuming here that the Anglo versions would allow for SYSEX (SYStem EXclusive messages - instrument specific commands in the MIDI world) control over the key layout.

 

Private practice: Being able to practice when playing an acoustic instrument would cause a problem (travelling, night hours in an apartment complex with thin walls, or because family would wake) is a definite plus.

 

Recording: The ability to record the notes precisely as played (with timing information) might make teaching easier, especially for instruments, like Concertinas, which are uncommon. If a teacher played a piece on a MIDI instrument, the MIDI version (along with audio versions played on a traditional Concertina, since no MIDI concertina is going to sound right[*]) could be put on a CD or a web site to help see exactly what is being played and when.

 

Recording Redux: People who play only concertinas would be able to multitrack themselves if they wanted to record their own backing playing a different instrument. Play the piece once as a flute, and then play back along with yourself with your normal Concertina.

 

--Dave

 

(*) It would theoretically be possible to come close, with a lot of sampling and a very skilled patch builder. It is unlikely to be worth the effort.

Edited February 19, 2004 by Dave Weinstein

[bill_mchale]

Well I suppose for a designer it would be nice to have something that one can experiment on... but I doubt many people would get one just to experiment with keyboard layout layouts, and for most players too much experimentation with keyboard layouts might be a bad thing. Lets suppose one comes up with the perfect layout for ones concertina and you have a custom maker make it and you become a master of it.... if the layout is too odd you won't really be able to play someone else's concertina.

 

Private practice: Well I suppose it could be useful for learning new tunes and stuff, but I would imagine that the best practice would occur by playing ones regular instrument, afterall you have to learn the master the individual quirks of ones instrument; quirks that almost by definition won't be present in an electronic instrument. As for the concertina disturbing others.. well I agree you probably are not going to be able to play a real one on a bus or the subway, but most private rooms, even with relatively thin walls, should mute the sound enough that if you play quietly it should not disturb other people or wake them up. Certainly that has been my experience with my 4 voice accordion and I suspect most concertinas can be played even more quietly than my box.

 

Recording... I suppose for teaching it might have some utility, but really, the same could be served by providing the actual sheet music and maybe providing fingering suggestions. For other recording options.. even if you can make a midi concertina sound like a flute, that does not make it a good idea... Each instrument has its strengths and weaknesses... an ornament that might be easy on a flute will be difficult on a concertina and the reverse would also be true... so while the casual listener might hear a flute, someone a bit more up on flute playing is going to be driven crazy by the odd style of play.

 

I guess its just to me but midi instruments just are not the same as playing the real thing and I suppose I am also scared that people are going to start showing up at the local sessions with midi versions of the real instruments.

 

--

Bill

[JimLucas]

Well I suppose for a designer it would be nice to have something that one can experiment on... but I doubt many people would get one just to experiment with keyboard layout layouts, and for most players too much experimentation with keyboard layouts might be a bad thing.

Dave W. said "Layout experimentations", but I would replace that with "Layout variation" for a different perspective. Say I'm used to a Jeffries layout, but somebody who's used to a Wheatstone arrives at the session without his box. I'd be happy to loan him mine, but he'll find himself playing some really wrong notes. But if all I have to do is flip a switch on my MIDI anglo... hey, he's in business. And of course, I could have a custom layout for myself and still have settings for both standard layouts to accomodate others.

 

Or what if the fiddlers want the "brighter" sound of tuning half a step higher than standard? No problem, since I can do the same with my MIDI box. (A friend of mine used to deliberately learn tunes in Ab and Eb, so that he could play with fiddlers who did just that and refused to be considerate of others' needs/reeds.)

 

Instead of owning three (or more) separate instruments -- a C/G, a G/D, and a baritone C/G -- using a MIDI instrument as a 3-in-1 wouldn't require the income of a Bill Gates.

 

But one could also approach playing in different keys from a completely different perspective. Instead of getting an anglo with 24, 30, or 40 buttons and learning a completely different sequence of buttons for each key, a single 20-button (or even 10-button?) instrument could suffice for all keys. You could even have settings where the standard major-key fingerings would give you minor scales or other modes, like some special hamonicas I've seen. Oh, you might want to use that technique but still increase to a 24-button layout to handle those tunes that have a few special accidentals... or you might have a design that allowed dynamic switch-operated changes to the layout while playing, like the pedals on a concert harp or the "flags" on a traditional harp.

 

Sure, it wouldn't be quite the same as the way anglos have been played traditionally, but I suppose similar arguments were used against the various duet systems when they were introduced.

 

Private practice:  Well I suppose it could be useful for learning new tunes and stuff, but I would imagine that the best practice would occur by playing ones regular instrument,...

Well, for some folks the MIDI would be their "regular instrument". But the other side of the coin is that some of us already have more than one instrument, and practicing on one does help our playing on the others. In fact, I find that practicing any concertina -- English, Crane, 30-button C/G Ceili, 38-button G/D Jeffries, etc. -- improves my playing of the others. Switching among different anglos with the same key layout is more like swtiching between different makes of guitar. I hope you don't believe that practicing on a Harmony makes it difficult to play a Martin. And I know from listening experience that Stanley Jordan's use of a MIDI guitar doesn't impede his playing on an acoustic. (That's a tale for another day.)

 

...afterall you have to learn the master the individual quirks of ones instrument; quirks that almost by definition won't be present in an electronic instrument.

But one can certainly learn the quirks of more than one instrument, and compensate for them as minor variations. I do touch typing on American, British, and Danish keyboards and three other keyboards that aren't even for human languages, and I can do it without thinking on machines ranging from manual and electric typewriters to various sizes of computer keyboards. Most "individual quirks" are no more limiting than the color of the keys.

 

As for the concertina disturbing others.. well I agree you probably are not going to be able to play a real one on a bus or the subway, but most private rooms, even with relatively thin walls, should mute the sound enough that if you play quietly it should not disturb other people or wake them up.  Certainly that has been my experience with my 4 voice accordion and I suspect most concertinas can be played even more quietly than my box.

In my old apartment I could play full volume at 3 am and no one complained (OK, the one neighbor did complain she couldn't hear me well enough); here I can't play after 10 pm, and I have to be careful of volume at other times. Different building construction, and different neighbors.

 

Recording [...] while the casual listener might hear a flute, someone a bit more up on flute playing is going to be driven crazy by the odd style of play.

Great! Let's do it!

 

I guess its just to me but midi instruments just are not the same as playing the real thing and I suppose I am also scared that people are going to start showing up at the local sessions with midi versions of the real instruments.

I hope they do, and that you find yourself enjoying their playing before you discover it's MIDI. I wonder how much experience you have with MIDI. The insipid crap that comes out of simple computer programs is certainly not indicative of what MIDI can accomplish. As with many other technologies, there's a wide range of quality and capability. I have a friend who would never play any piano but a concert grand... until I got her to try my Yamaha keyboard -- weighted, with velocity, a good sythesizer. She loved it and claimed it both felt and sounded like a real concert grand.

 

Of course, it remains to be seen what the upcoming MIDI concertinas will be like and how they will develop over time.

 

I'm definitely going to want both English and anglo MIDI concertinas (and duets, if anybody makes them). But don't waste your time queing up for the Jeffries, Jones, Wheatstones, Lachenals, etc. I'm not letting them go.

[Denis]

I'm really looking forward to being able to make my instrument sound like something else - but then maybe I'm the ony one here who tries to play Led Zep and Dire Straits on the English (as well as the more traditional stuff!

 

Denis

[JimLucas]

I'm really looking forward to being able to make my instrument sound like something else...

I'd sort of like to make my instrument sound like somebody else.

[Chris Ghent]

I'm with Jim, well said.

 

Personally, I started thinking how much I'd like one immediately, and was then disappointed to realise it said "English". Still, an Anglo will surely follow..?

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

Personally, I started thinking how much I'd like one immediately, and was then disappointed to realise it said "English".  Still, an Anglo will surely follow..?

If you can't wait, get the English version and modify it as follows:

... 1) Remove the finger plates and in their place put hand rails with straps. (Obviously, longer than the finger plates, but long in the same direction. Make sure that the rails are secured by screws extending into the board with the pad-covered holes, or you risk pulling the end apart.)

... 2) Reprogram the midi to put the notes where you want them, with different notes on push and pull. (I hope that last will be possible. There will have to be some way of detecting bellows pressure, and it will have to be different for the two directions of bellows motion, so the software should be able to distinguish which direction and treat each combination of bellows direction and button separately.)

... 3) Voila! The rows are straight, rather than curved, nor is the "diagonal" offset between rows quite right, but you have an "anglo" with 4 rows of 6 buttons in the left hand and rows of 6, 7, 6, and 5 in the right. Admittedly not quite the same as a midi copy of a 40-button Linota layout, but as I said, "If you can't wait...."

 

.........

[Kurt Braun]

A midi version of the concertina is long overdue. What was the original if not an attempt to bring all fo the then modern techniques together to build the best and best mechanical arts to bear the making of a thoroughly modern, portable and versatile musical instrument? I can't wait.

[bill_mchale]

Well it seems obvious that some of you are hopeless in your love of electronic fru-fru Granted everyone has a right to their opinions even if theya re wrong . Just some final thoughts from this luddite .

 

Jim, you mention the idea of me playing with a Midi concertina and enjoying it before I realize that it is a Midi... and such instruments would not be a problem per say.. but if one wants an instrument that sounds like a concertina, just get a concertina; unlike a keyboard, their is no serious impediment to bringing a real concertina to the local session. The people I am worried about are the ones who bring the midi monstrosity (notice the alliteration ) to the session and then decide to make it sound like a flute or some other instrument or something unique all together (like you sometimes see with electronic keyboard players). I am sure it has its place, but not in Irish Trad Sessions.

 

The other thought is that the further one moves from the standard layouts in designing ones instrument, the less like an anglo or an english concertina you are playing... your style is going to start sounding very different from what the standard instruments sound. For some music that might be ok, but for others its going to make you rather unpopular with some people playing in sessions. To put it in simple terms, if you are playing in an Irish Music Session, the other players have every right to assume that your playing style will be appropriate for irish music.

 

--

Bill

[Guest]

Some people love em, some people hate em. I'm just glad that there are people are out in this wonderful wide world of us who are passionate about music, no matter what form it may take.

 

I wish you all much music and joy

 

Morgana

[stuart estell]

A midi version of the concertina is long overdue.  What  was the original if not an attempt to bring all fo the then modern techniques together to build the best and best mechanical arts to bear the making of a thoroughly modern, portable and versatile musical instrument?  I can't wait.

I think it's a great idea - particularly for concertina-players who don't play keyboards but who fancy having a go at computer-assisted sequencing/arranging.

 

Personally, though, I have a real love-hate relationship with electronic instruments - particularly keyboards. In the main, I hate playing them, and have always said I'd rather have a cheap wreck of an acoustic piano over a pristine electronic one. Even playing the recent top-of-the-range Yamaha ones with the new weighted wooden actions hasn't changed my mind on this (sorry Jim!) - there's simply something missing, and it's probably that wonderful organic relationship between construction materials and sound. In the same way a digital piano isn't an acoustic piano, a MIDI concertina isn't going to be an acoustic concertina. They're two different things.

 

And don't start me off on MIDI guitars.

 

But then electronics are great for some things. I have a Roland keyboard that I can get some really foul bass sounds out of

 

I once thought that electronic instruments would never replace the "real" things. Now I'm not so sure; it may not necessarily be a bad thing, but I am increasingly convinced that that approach isn't for me. Incidentally, I'm not much fond of digital recording either - 8-track tape for me please

 

Stuart

 

(edited for bad grammar)

Edited February 20, 2004 by stuart estell

[JimLucas]

I'd rather have a cheap wreck of an acoustic piano over a pristine electronic one. Even playing the recent top-of-the-range Yamaha ones with the new weighted wooden actions hasn't changed my mind on this (sorry Jim!)...

No need to apologize to me. I don't play piano; I have it so my friends don't have to bring their own when they come over to play.

 

And don't start me off on MIDI guitars.

Dunno about you, but I think they'd be a great way to start kids off on guitar... and with earphones!

 

(edited for bad grammar)

Is that how it got in there?

[JimLucas]

everyone has a right to their opinions even if theya re wrong

Indeed you do.

 

Just some final thoughts from this luddite

Bill, you keep calling yourself a Luddite. But Luddites are people who go around smashing machinery. And a concertina is machinery of the highest order. Please tell me you're not a Luddite!

 

...unlike a keyboard, their is no serious impediment to bringing a real concertina to the local session.

There could be one... cost. (Currently it's uncertain whether midis will be cheaper. Presumably, time will tell.) But I also noted that a single MIDI concertina might do the job of several standard concertinas, e.g., a C/G, a G/D, a baritone C/G, a Bb/F, and now I'm into to the realm of too many to carry.

 

The people I am worried about are the ones who bring the midi monstrosity (notice the alliteration ) to the session and then decide to make it sound like a flute...

Heaven forbid someone should have an instrument that sounds like a flute (is that wooden, or "silver"), instead of raucous reeds! (Did somebody say something about alliteration?)

 

...or some other instrument or something unique all together...

You mean unique like the concertina was when it first appeared on the music scene?

 

I am sure it has its place, but not in Irish Trad Sessions.

I was about to say, "Who are you to make such a declaration?" But maybe that's unfair. I've been playing Irish music for more than 30 years now (on an English concertina, by the way), but I have to admit that I'm not really sure what Irish "Trad" is, or who invented it, or when.

 

Well, you seem to be protesting the potential intrusion of newfangled technology or maybe just something different, and it's an age-old protest. I remember an uilleann piper who would complain about the intrusion into Irish music of that newfangled, "foreign" instrument... the fiddle! (He didn't seem to mind the concertina, but in those days there seemed no danger of it becoming a threat to the pipes' dominance.)

 

Well, I could get into a long debate about the definitions of such things as "Irish style", "Irish session", "traditional", etc., including who has the authority to define them, but I've decided not to... at least not here.

 

It seems to me, Bill, that you have settled into a comfortable musical microecology, but you fear that it might be disturbed. In particular, you've attached your fears to the concept of a midi concertina. Quite apart from my own desire to experiment with something new, I'm trying to suggest that your worry is futile, or at least premature. First, even the English midi concertina is yet to come on the market. If (though more likely when) such an instrument becomes commercially available, you personally are unlikely to have any influence on its production, distribution, or popularity, no matter what you say. If someone eventually brings one to one of the sessions you attend, the powers in control (I'm guessing that's not you) will either accept it or reject it. Surely such controlling powers exist and have some means of enforcing rejection, if that's their judgement. But whatever happens in such a session, it will probably have little effect on other sessions, much less in other musical genres... and it shouldn't.

 

But what would it take for a midi concertina to show up at your session? Either some stranger who alrady plays one would drop by or one of your local concertina players (you? oh, no! ) would have to start playing one. Realistically, what do you think are the chances of either? Now the drop-by scenario could also happen with a saxophone or an electric bass, or even a midi flute. Has that happened at your local session? What was the response? By the way, there's a fellow at some of my local sessions who does sometimes play reels and such on the soprano sax. Not all the time -- in sessions he mainly plays flute and whistle, -- but he's good, and when he does, everyone loves it! The electric bass brings a different problem... the amplifier and speaker. Electric guitar would be the same. Do those show up at your local session? What happens if they do?

 

Back to the midi concertina: Unless it has the synthesizer, amp, and speaker built in, it will present the same problem as electric strings (or worse). Wim Wakker mentioned a "wireless" connection, which suggests to me that external electronics will be needed. Maybe this is why midi flutes haven't displaced the blackwood beasts?

 

In other words, I think you have nothing to worry about for a long time and so should let those of us who like experimentation, variation, and versatility do our thing without disturbing our neighbors... or even you, if you're in the next hotel room. I think you can safely save your complaining for 40 years from now, when you can tell children tales of "the good old days", when concertinas had reeds and even the smallest personal computers wouldn't fit in your pocket.

[stuart estell]

And don't start me off on MIDI guitars.

Dunno about you, but I think they'd be a great way to start kids off on guitar... and with earphones!

I'm sure the technology has improved, but the last one I played introduced a really noticeable time delay between pickup, MIDI-signal-converter-thingy and synthesizer. I'd liken it to playing a church organ in which the console is in a different part of the building from the pipes... something of a challenge if you're trying to use it to play rhythm guitar for ensemble playing!

 

I'd much rather give a kid a cheap electric guitar, one of those mini Marshall or Danelectro battery amps and a pair of headphones

[bill_mchale]

Jim, I am not calling myself a luddite because I am advocating destroying machines... rather using in the term of the broader sense of being suspicious about technological innovation, particularly for its own sake. Granted the concertina and the instrument I am somewhat more proficient at, the button accordion, are machines and products of the industrial revolution, but they have seeped into Irish Traditional music over the course of the last century to such an extent that Clare music (concertina) and Kerry and East Galway music (Accordion) would be very weird without those instruments.

 

Regarding my objection to the concertina sounding like a flute; its not that I have a problem with a flute, indeed I love the flute, but regardless of how exact you can reproduce the sound on a midi concertina, you can't play the concertina like a flute anymore than you can play a flute like a concertina. As far as I can tell, most musical styles evolve in part as a response to the limitations of the instruments used and people who play different instruments in the tradition are going to come up with their own solutions to their limitations that work with the other instruments in the tradition. That being said, a roll or a cran on a button box is going to be different than one played on a flute or the pipes and the same is true on the concertina or fiddle or whatever. On a B/C accordion you pretty much can't do a proper roll on an F# (and it just isn't a question of my limited playing ability, I was told so by Billy McComiskey) where rolling on an F# would be pretty simple on the flute or the whistle. So introducing instruments that can imitate other instruments with out actually having the same strengths and limitations is going to start altering the character of the music.

 

Now granted I am sure that there are areas of music where such problems would not be problems per say; after all new musical genres are developing all the time and I imagine it also would not be as much of an issue for musical styles that are less ornamented than Irish Trad Music.

 

Ok, ultimately neither I nor anyone else has the authority to say what is and isn't Irish Music but I think ultimately those who love it know what it is and isn't. To me at least the idea of too much electronic music, particularly when people are using instruments to sound significantly different from what they are... if that makes any sense at all with electronic instruments.

 

--

Bill

[JimLucas]

Jim, I am not calling myself a luddite because I am advocating destroying machines...

I know. I was pulling your leg. At least, I hoped I was!

 

Regarding my objection to the concertina sounding like a flute; its not that I have a problem with a flute,...

Again, I suspected as much.

 

...but regardless of how exact you can reproduce the sound on a midi concertina, you can't play the concertina like a flute anymore than you can play a flute like a concertina.

Exactly the sort of argument some folks have used in the past to claim you can't play Irish music on an English concertina, or on concert ("silver") flute. First you set up the artificial condition that to sound Irish the one instrument must sound identical to the other in all respects if it sounds the same in any respect; then you say that it doesn't meet that condition; and so you say it's wrong for Irish music. Well, I say that the first assumption is false, and that renders the entire argument null and void. And I can provide examples where the finest Irish musicians agree with me, at least where it comes to English concertina and concert flute.

 

Now it's very possible that if/when you hear a midi concertina you won't like it. That may depend on who is playing it, and also on whether they've set it to sound like a "flute" or "violin" rather than a "concertina". (There's no guarantee they will. My piano-playing friend who liked my Yamaha keyboard enjoyed experimenting with the non-piano settngs, from classical guitar and jazz trumpet to "Balinese bath house", but she never even tried to use those for Bach or Chopin piano pieces.) I'm just asking that you listen to something before you judge.

 

So introducing instruments that can imitate other instruments with out actually having the same strengths and limitations is going to start altering the character of the music.

And you're claiming this is bad, or even wrong? Where would Irish music be today if that argument had been used successfully against the introduction of the B/C box? At first it appears to be just like the older traditional G/D box, except that the ornaments and push-pull changes just aren't the same. But then the G/D box is itself "an abominable corruption" of the single-row button accordion.

 

I imagine it also would not be as much of an issue for musical styles that are less ornamented than Irish Trad Music.

Once again, you seem to be assuming that what you have personally experienced is somehow both all-there-is and sacrosanct. Some years ago a friend of my was taking lessons from Paddy Reynolds, a fiddler from Galway. One day he asked Paddy to teach him rolls on the fiddle, to which he said Paddy replied, "No! That's piping shit! If you want to learn to play the fiddle, you come to me. But if you want to learn that shit, go find yourself a piper." Paddy, by the way, was perfectly capable of playing "that shit", and he often did so when playing in concert with others. But they weren't part of the fiddle tradition he grew up with, and they're not required for music to be Irish. In my experience, the "Irish" feel is something much deeper, and the ornaments are just what we call them: "ornaments".

 

Ok, ultimately neither I nor anyone else has the authority to say what is and isn't Irish Music but I think ultimately those who love it know what it is and isn't.

And they will disagree until the sun comes up over whether a particular bit they've heard is or isn't. If you haven't experienced that, then I fear your experience is rather limited.

 

To me at least the idea of too much electronic music, particularly when people are using instruments to sound significantly different from what they are... if that makes any sense at all with electronic instruments.

And there you have it. It's not the music that's bothering you, it's the "idea". Your concerns are based on preconception and prejudice. You have made assumptions regarding some things that some people might do with a midi concertina, and are using that to argue against the whole concept.

 

Well, if you can do that, then I can argue against your argument... and I have.

[JimLucas]

A thought occurred to me: I know that midi piano accordions have been around for some time, and there are several makers. I thought the same should be true of the "diatonic" kind, and that there might even be some prominent Irish b-boxers playing them. So I did some brief searching on Google.

 

The results were not as promising (or dismaying, depending on your point of view) as I had hoped. I did find one maker's web page(http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/alba/midibutt.htm), but it was last updated in 1996, so I don't know if he's still in the business. It does mention an external midi controller and a mains cable, so I suspect it would be awkward in a session.

 

I know I've seen John Whelan use a wireless box, but that might have been only for connecting to the mixing board, not necessarily midi. I didn't get any hints from his web site.

 

I'd be surprised if there aren't some midi-B/C boxes out there. On the other hand, I'd expect that if there were, they would be more discussed. So I'm wondering if anybody else here knows more.

 

In any event, my idea of judging the potential impact of midi concertinas from the real impact of midi button boxes has turned out to be fantasy.

[bill_mchale]

Well regarding Midi button accordions used in Irish music? I know of no player who uses them. Billy McComiskey plays old grey Paolo Sopranis or Saltarelles; Patty Furlong plays Saltarelle Irish Boebes (she usually has two with her, 1 tuned in B/C and 1 in C#/D; Paddy O'Brien plays a Paolo as does John Nolan; John Whelan now I think plays pretty much just Cairdin Boxes (though he might have wireless pickups in them); Sharon Shannon plays Castagnaris... I could go on. Ultimately I think Box players want their boxes to sound like boxes.

 

Button accordion players are I think not like Piano accordion players in general. Button Boxes tend to be tied more closely to tradtional music genres (be it Irish, Cajun, Tex-Mex, what have you). Piano Accordions are used in a wider selection of music, everything from traditional music to rock (Yeah I know its weird, but I have seen a few bands, maybe more pop than rock use them) and jazz. That being the case, I can see why a Piano Accordion player might want an instrument that has a broader range of sound choices. Of course it might have to do with the continuing efforts of button box players to distance themselves from the piano accordion players .

 

Personally at least for traditional music I think the lack of Midi button boxes bode well for the future of concertinas.. why play an instrument that doesn't sound like itself .

 

Oh one last thought... Jim, I know you were talking about the silver flute and the english concertina in Irish music and the early resistence to half step tuned boxes... well I tend to agree with you.. but I also think that in a way it is good that their is resistence to inovation in traditional music forms. Something innovative should have to earn its place in the music. Further the English Concertina, the Silver Flute and the B/C accordions are instruments in their own right, not instruments trying to be something else. That is my biggest fear with Midi instruments in general in the context of traditional music; that one will end up walking into a session and never know what to expect... if everyone brings in instruments with custom layouts and tunings and various sound effects of various sorts... with concertinas sounding like flutes, flutes sounding like fiddles and bodhrans sounding like uillean pipes how much tradition will be left in traditional music...

 

--

Bill