Best Staff For Left-hand Of Duet?

[frogspawn]

Now I'm beginning to bring in my left hand, I've been trying out some chords etc in notation software (Noteworthy Composer). Although it might be conventional to use a Bass Staff for the left-hand, most of the left-hand buttons of my Crane Duet overlap with the right-hand buttons and actually fall above the Bass Staff, i.e. on ledger lines or up on the Treble Staff.

 

If you drop all the left-hand notes an octave, they will fit better on the Bass Staff, but this seems pointless as it destroys the continuity with the Treble Staff.

 

I note that Brian Hayden's duet tutor shows a 'Baritone Staff' for the left-hand of the Crane. I'd not encountered one of these before but it seems to be arranged just like the Treble Staff, only an octave lower. Since googling "Baritone Staff", I now suspect this name is more usually applied to another staff. What Brian illustrates is identified at http://dolmetsch.com/musictheory14.htm as a 'vocal tenor clef' or an 'octave down G clef' which describes it more precisely.

 

Anyway, regardless of what you want to call it, it makes a lot of sense for the Crane, given that the button arrangement on the two ends is identical, albeit an octave apart. It also frees you from having to learn/relate to the Bass Staff.

 

If the left-hand is basically playing chords or arpeggios or countermelodies independently of the right hand, I don't think the continuity between the staves is very important, and if the melody does fall below the right-hand I'd be inclined to depict that on ledger lines below the Treble Staff, independently of the 'octave down G clef', i.e. I’d treat the staves as separate parts.

 

Am I on the right track?

 

Richard

[m3838]

Now I'm beginning to bring in my left hand, I've been trying out some chords etc in notation software (Noteworthy Composer). Although it might be conventional to use a Bass Staff for the left-hand, most of the left-hand buttons of my Crane Duet overlap with the right-hand buttons and actually fall above the Bass Staff, i.e. on ledger lines or up on the Treble Staff.

 

If you drop all the left-hand notes an octave, they will fit better on the Bass Staff, but this seems pointless as it destroys the continuity with the Treble Staff.

 

I note that Brian Hayden's duet tutor shows a 'Baritone Staff' for the left-hand of the Crane. I'd not encountered one of these before but it seems to be arranged just like the Treble Staff, only an octave lower. Since googling "Baritone Staff", I now suspect this name is more usually applied to another staff. What Brian illustrates is identified at http://dolmetsch.com/musictheory14.htm as a 'vocal tenor clef' or an 'octave down G clef' which describes it more precisely.

 

Anyway, regardless of what you want to call it, it makes a lot of sense for the Crane, given that the button arrangement on the two ends is identical, albeit an octave apart. It also frees you from having to learn/relate to the Bass Staff.

 

If the left-hand is basically playing chords or arpeggios or countermelodies independently of the right hand, I don't think the continuity between the staves is very important, and if the melody does fall below the right-hand I'd be inclined to depict that on ledger lines below the Treble Staff, independently of the 'octave down G clef', i.e. I’d treat the staves as separate parts.

 

Am I on the right track?

 

Richard

 

Having been thinking about it myself (thinking and thinking about Bandoneon, but can't make myself to jump), I think it is far easier to just learn the bass cleff. This way it is going to be less cumbersome. Besides, there is a trick for the bass cleff: Each tone of the bass cleff is exactly one line below the trebble, so if you have difficulties to read bass cleff, just imaging the tone moving either one line up or one space up and you will have no difficulties recognizing them.

See, I still remember something useful from my CBA disaster..., I mean schooling.

[Crane Driver]

Well, I've been playing Crane Duet since 1971, and I've never learnt to read notation for the left hand. I mainly use the box to accompany singing and play from memory, though it's useful to have the tune notated to learn from. I do also play in a ceilidh band, and use notation for the tune (right hand) because there's too many tunes to learn and I find it hard to retain tunes if there's no words attached.

 

What I do, for fun as much as practice, is to run up and down scales on the right hand, varying the timing to make it sound like a tune, and try to fit in something on the left - simple chords to begin with, then more complex runs and riffs. I've got to the stage where I can concentrate my attention on the right hand, playing from memory or notation, and let my left hand get on with what it does. Sometimes I amaze myself with what my left hand comes up with, and have to stop and work out what I did.

 

The idea of trying to read two staves, one for each hand, while trying to keep up with a fiddler ripping into a set of jigs, doesn't bear thinking about. 'Keep it simple' - that's my motto.

 

Listen to some samples of what I do on our website Crane Drivin' Music.

 

All the best,

 

Andrew

[Dirge]

I put high lh notes in the treble and mark them, rather than count ledgers to keep them slavishly in the bass line and I have got used to learning which treble line notes I need to play with my lh as I go; I often scribble L's next to them, just ring them or whatever (add some fingering and my music often looks more than a little, erm, messy!)..

 

I'd have thought learning to cope with the bass clef will serve you better in the long term. I don't know that there is a good answer though. I think learning to pick some treble notes up with your left is just one of the things you get used to with practice.

[JimLucas]

Now I'm beginning to bring in my left hand, I've been trying out some chords etc in notation software (Noteworthy Composer). Although it might be conventional to use a Bass Staff for the left-hand, most of the left-hand buttons of my Crane Duet overlap with the right-hand buttons and actually fall above the Bass Staff, i.e. on ledger lines or up on the Treble Staff.

There is such a thing as a "tenor" or "viola" clef, in which the middle line of the staff is middle C. I could recommend it, but I won't. The advantage of the bass clef is that it continues the treble clef, with a single "ledger" line in between them to represent "middle" C. I myself am about equally comfortable with both the bass clef and the drop-octave "vocal tenor" clef.

 

I don't know Noteworthy Composer. Years ago I started using Finale, and have stayed with it. So the next bit relates to how I do things in Finale. I don't know if you can do the same in NC. I hope so. Using a double staff with treble above and either bass or vocal-tenor below, Finale will allow you to enter notes in the one staff, but then move them into the other staff. E.g., you can write the entire melody of a fiddle tune in the right hand, even those notes that go below middle C (the lowest RH note on most smaller duets), but then tell Finale (with just a few keystrokes or mouse clicks) to shift certain of the notes (e.g., those which are missing from the right hand of the insstrument) into the other staff. Stems and bars will still connect these notes to the rest in the upper staff (to indicate musical continuity), but the note heads will be in the lower staff, to show that they must be played by the other hand. Finale understands the true note values in both bass and vocal-tenor clefs, so it always positions such "flipped" notes correctly. (And of course, one can flip notes the other way for any notes that are crossed in the other direction.)

 

I actually started using this system in notating arrangements for the anglo, where instead of a treble clef for the right hand and an octave-down treble clef for the left, I use a standard treble clef for the left hand and an octave-up treble clef for the right hand. I think it works beautifully.

[Larry Stout]

I've been trying to learn bass clef, largely because the Wilton-Bulstrode tutor for the Crane and the David Cornell arrangements (which are, admittedly for McCann) use the bass clef. I agree that the baritone clef (the ones on the dolmetch.com/musictheory site have the same staff lines---one uses an f-clef and the other uses a c-clef to mark the reference point) would be better for the Crane, but I don't think it would be easy to find existing music which uses it. One object in learning to read bass clef is so that I may eventually be able to play music written for multipart voice or piano.

[Richard Morse]

Now I'm beginning to bring in my left hand, I've been trying out some chords etc in notation software (Noteworthy Composer). Although it might be conventional to use a Bass Staff for the left-hand, most of the left-hand buttons of my Crane Duet overlap with the right-hand buttons and actually fall above the Bass Staff, i.e. on ledger lines or up on the Treble Staff.

I'm reasonably proficient in reading bass cleff and I suggest that learning it will be very useful - especially to duet players. NWC has a lot of stave size and placement flexibility which I find ideal for working up pieces. Select your treble stave, F2, General tab, and change the staff lower spacing to 7. Now select the bass staff, F2, General tab, and change the upper spacing to 5. This is what you get:

Now you've got one continuous mega-stave that makes sense. Pretty slick! Easy to input, easy to read. In NWC you can even color the staves differently and put notations within the staves of which hand (and/or finger) to play the various notes.

 

-- Rich --

[frogspawn]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions so far, but I'm still having difficulties! Let me explain with a specific example. (Here's a diagram of my buttons http://www.concertina.com/crane-duet/index.htm.)

 

Let's say my right-hand melody on the Treble Clef is in G and falls as low as D immediately above Middle C. This sits comfortably on the Treble Clef. My left-hand, meanwhile, is playing a succession of oom-pahs. These consist of a bass note and a two-note chord consisting of the fifth and the octave above, e.g. G followed by D'+G'. My bass G note on the left-hand is written in the top space of the Bass Clef. This is the lowest G I have. The G an octave above which forms part of my two-note chord is comfortably played on the left hand but its notation falls on the second line up of the Treble Clef, i.e. it's the same note as the tonic of my melody. The melody and chords pretty well crash into each other and can even overlap.

 

Richard

 

Now I'm beginning to bring in my left hand, I've been trying out some chords etc in notation software (Noteworthy Composer). Although it might be conventional to use a Bass Staff for the left-hand, most of the left-hand buttons of my Crane Duet overlap with the right-hand buttons and actually fall above the Bass Staff, i.e. on ledger lines or up on the Treble Staff.

I'm reasonably proficient in reading bass cleff and I suggest that learning it will be very useful - especially to duet players. NWC has a lot of stave size and placement flexibility which I find ideal for working up pieces. Select your treble stave, F2, General tab, and change the staff lower spacing to 7. Now select the bass staff, F2, General tab, and change the upper spacing to 5. This is what you get:

Now you've got one continuous mega-stave that makes sense. Pretty slick! Easy to input, easy to read. In NWC you can even color the staves differently and put notations within the staves of which hand (and/or finger) to play the various notes.

 

-- Rich --

[m3838]

The melody and chords pretty well crash into each other and can even overlap.

 

Richard

 

Then you need to use two C-cleffs, it's not a problem.

Your only "bass cleff" notes are G (below second ledger line), A ( on second ledger line ) and B (below first ledger line). Easy!

Exactly the bottom level of Trebble English.

[njurkowski]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions so far, but I'm still having difficulties! Let me explain with a specific example. (Here's a diagram of my buttons http://www.concertina.com/crane-duet/index.htm.)

 

Let's say my right-hand melody on the Treble Clef is in G and falls as low as D immediately above Middle C. This sits comfortably on the Treble Clef. My left-hand, meanwhile, is playing a succession of oom-pahs. These consist of a bass note and a two-note chord consisting of the fifth and the octave above, e.g. G followed by D'+G'. My bass G note on the left-hand is written in the top space of the Bass Clef. This is the lowest G I have. The G an octave above which forms part of my two-note chord is comfortably played on the left hand but its notation falls on the second line up of the Treble Clef, i.e. it's the same note as the tonic of my melody. The melody and chords pretty well crash into each other and can even overlap.

 

Richard

 

Now I'm beginning to bring in my left hand, I've been trying out some chords etc in notation software (Noteworthy Composer). Although it might be conventional to use a Bass Staff for the left-hand, most of the left-hand buttons of my Crane Duet overlap with the right-hand buttons and actually fall above the Bass Staff, i.e. on ledger lines or up on the Treble Staff.

I'm reasonably proficient in reading bass cleff and I suggest that learning it will be very useful - especially to duet players. NWC has a lot of stave size and placement flexibility which I find ideal for working up pieces. Select your treble stave, F2, General tab, and change the staff lower spacing to 7. Now select the bass staff, F2, General tab, and change the upper spacing to 5. This is what you get:

Now you've got one continuous mega-stave that makes sense. Pretty slick! Easy to input, easy to read. In NWC you can even color the staves differently and put notations within the staves of which hand (and/or finger) to play the various notes.

 

-- Rich --

 

 

As an EC player, I feel your pain...the fact that that G is my lowest note causes some problems for accompaniment...

 

I've included a JPEG what what I believe you're describing. In this case, I would probably transpose the right hand up an octave to avoid voice crossings and the aforementioned clash - it gets a little squeaky at times, but it sounds more "correct." The way I've notated it would probably be the conventional way to notate what you're describing using a bass and treble clef.

 

I'd definitely learn bass clef, since if you move up to an instrument that has a lower range, C clefs become silly (why read 4 ledger lines down an alto clef, really?) I would recommend against easing yourself into it reading in an octave treble clef, since it will just make it more difficult later to transition to reading an actual bass clef.

 

I've also included some of the clefs that have been mentioned, in case anyone was curious or unfamiliar.

 

 

Nick

[frogspawn]

Nick

 

That's a clear way to notate things, but shifting the melody up an octave isn't an option as the right-hand buttons just don't go up far enough for that.

 

Richard

 

I've included a JPEG what what I believe you're describing. In this case, I would probably transpose the right hand up an octave to avoid voice crossings and the aforementioned clash - it gets a little squeaky at times, but it sounds more "correct." The way I've notated it would probably be the conventional way to notate what you're describing using a bass and treble clef.

 

I'd definitely learn bass clef, since if you move up to an instrument that has a lower range, C clefs become silly (why read 4 ledger lines down an alto clef, really?) I would recommend against easing yourself into it reading in an octave treble clef, since it will just make it more difficult later to transition to reading an actual bass clef.

 

I've also included some of the clefs that have been mentioned, in case anyone was curious or unfamiliar.

 

 

Nick

[Ivan Viehoff]

If you are just writing it for yourself, you do whatever you find convenient. It depends what instrument you have what makes most sense. On my 57-Maccann, which, like your Crane, has the LH an octave below the RH, using treble and octave treble makes a lot of sense. For my 46-Maccann, where the RH only goes down to G, I prefer to use treble and bass, but write it all down an octave lower than sounding pitch. This makes particular sense because when playing the 46-Maccann scores from other sources, you often have to play it an octave above written pitch anyway. But a lot of music comes in treble and bass, so getting used to being able to read that seems like a good idea.

 

If you are writing and hoping someone else will be reading it, then stick to treble, octave treble and bass, because lots of people can read fluently off them. Don't use C-clefs (Tenor and Alto), because very few people can read fluently off them. Each is just one note off the octave-treble, and therefore create the same effect for most of us of trying to transposing at sight by a note, not a trick too many can pull off. I used to play the bassoon and it was conventional (as for cellos) to use the tenor clef for high passages. It was one of the reasons I didn't persist with the instrument. Why on earth they couldn't make our life easy by using octave treble... I later got into singing plainsong, which is usually written on a four-line staff where C is the top line, like a tenor clef with the top line missing. I've now got used to that, but it took a long time.

 

"Baritone clef" seems to be a name Brian has invented for the octave treble.

[JimLucas]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions so far, but I'm still having difficulties!

 

Let's say my right-hand melody on the Treble Clef is in G and falls as low as D immediately above Middle C. This sits comfortably on the Treble Clef. My left-hand, meanwhile, is playing a succession of oom-pahs. These consist of a bass note and a two-note chord consisting of the fifth and the octave above, e.g. G followed by D'+G'. My bass G note on the left-hand is written in the top space of the Bass Clef. This is the lowest G I have. The G an octave above which forms part of my two-note chord is comfortably played on the left hand but its notation falls on the second line up of the Treble Clef, i.e. it's the same note as the tonic of my melody. The melody and chords pretty well crash into each other and can even overlap.

Seems to me your solution is clear. It's the drop-octave treble clef, given various names in the discussion so far. Using that, the lowest note on a 48-button Crane is one ledger line below the staff -- just where middle C is in the standard treble clef, -- and the highest left-hand note is the space immediately above the staff. It has the added advantage that notes in the same location on the two ends of the instrument also appear in identical locations in the respective staves.

 

As others have said, if you intend to read music written for other instruments, it's useful to learn to read bass clef. But if your purpose is to notate music for yourself and you want to minimize the use of ledger lines, then using the drop-octave treble clef to notate for the left hand seems your best choice.

[JimLucas]

Well, I've been playing Crane Duet since 1971, and I've never learnt to read notation for the left hand. I mainly use the box to accompany singing and play from memory, though it's useful to have the tune notated to learn from. I do also play in a ceilidh band, and use notation for the tune (right hand) because there's too many tunes to learn and I find it hard to retain tunes if there's no words attached.

...

The idea of trying to read two staves, one for each hand, while trying to keep up with a fiddler ripping into a set of jigs, doesn't bear thinking about.

Aye. But I think Richard's purpose is not to "play from" the music in an ensemble or session, but to record arrangements he's worked out, so that he doesn't forget them. But since he does plan to play from those notations at a later time, even if only for practice, he wants them to be as easy to read as possible. He wants to minimize his use of ledger lines (those short, "extra" lines above and below the staff), because if there are many of them, it can be difficult to see quickly how many.

[frogspawn]

Jim

 

I was looking for some sort of endorsement, but not blindly. I think you have come closest to appreciating where I'm coming from given the physical layout of the Crane and my general desire to cut corners which is driven by a whole load of factors. I intend to play in octaves too. Of course, I don't need a score to do that! But the mental concordance between two identical ends and two identical staves (an octave apart) cuts out an arguably unnecessary layer of mental translation. Of course, if I start playing some other instrument then familiarity with the Bass Clef could be advantageous, but it's hardly relevant to what I do on the Crane.

 

In practice, as I become more familiar with playing chords and 'set' arpeggio patterns, it is highly likely that I will only be interested in a 'fakebook' approach to the left hand. I won't need to know what notes I am playing - only the 'chord shapes' - just as if I was playing a guitar. However, if I want to play around with counter-melodies, and try them out in the notation software first (I'm better with a mouse and keyboard than a concertina), then it will be far easier for me to work in the familiar environment of the Treble Clef and the identical corresponding button positions of the two sides of a Crane.

 

I don't suppose I will literally try to read both clefs at once while playing - I'm not a pianist - but the combination of Treble and dropped Treble clefs will provide an environment for computer experimentation and playing reference, as you discerned.

 

I do feel a little embarrassed that all this musical and notational theory is not matched by corresponding practical ability to actually play the thing, but we all have our individual approaches!

 

Richard

 

Seems to me your solution is clear. It's the drop-octave treble clef, given various names in the discussion so far. Using that, the lowest note on a 48-button Crane is one ledger line below the staff -- just where middle C is in the standard treble clef, -- and the highest left-hand note is the space immediately above the staff. It has the added advantage that notes in the same location on the two ends of the instrument also appear in identical locations in the respective staves.

 

As others have said, if you intend to read music written for other instruments, it's useful to learn to read bass clef. But if your purpose is to notate music for yourself and you want to minimize the use of ledger lines, then using the drop-octave treble clef to notate for the left hand seems your best choice.

[Hooves]

I have been working on learning the standard treble and bass clefs simply becuase almost all the music I have in printed form has been notated in treble/bass.

 

I do like the idea though of the treble/treble octave, that actaully makes alot of sense to me, but I think I will stick to treble/bass just so that when I get up enough nerve to play with other people, I will be on the same page.

 

One of my many hobbies is programming: I have been kickign around the idea of writing up a program to read MIDI files, display the notes on the staff as well as the buttons on the Crane/MacCaan duet. This way If i get a piece I want to learn, I can have it light up the buttons I need to push.

 

and the opposite, push the buttons and have it populate the staff.

 

It would be a tool for people to use to learn the Duet and to compare/contrast the Crane and MacCaan fingerings. I have been thinking of just writing it as a plugin for another piec eof sofwtare such as PowerTracks or Band ina Box.

 

But right now its just an idea, and now that you mention the other clefs, I can see the value in providing alternate methods of representing the staff notes.

[Richard Morse]

Of course, if I start playing some other instrument then familiarity with the Bass Clef could be advantageous, but it's hardly relevant to what I do on the Crane.

But consider that if you were familiar with bass clef then you'll be able to read that clef with your concertina! There's an incredible amount of piano notated music out there which I find handy a for starting ideas on how to approach playing or arranging pieces on/for duet. And so much of that is free! I've got to Googling for a piece I want to learn... Not only can you download "sheet" music but midi files as well.

 

In a way the midis are even more useful as NCW will open them... and then you can transpose them into the key that fits your box the best and move notes around to your hearts content. Recently I downloaded Sousa's King Cotton march which opened into 20-some staves which I cranked into the keys of C and G, threw away the ones I didn't need (cymbals, drums, etc.) and am working through it condensing the rest in to 6 parts for concertina band (which is expressed in treble yet I've got it toggled to sound in the correct octaves).

 

I'm also working on a single duet arrangement of it but written out in treble/bass clef as I've shown with the wrinkle that all the right hand notes are one color and the left hand notes another. That way you can tell which hand to play them with when they go into the other staff.

 

-- Rich --

[frogspawn]

My current primary interest is just in folk tunes and all the tune books I have just show melodies, but I note your advice for future reference if and when I ever get to exploit the Crane's potential.

 

Richard

 

Of course, if I start playing some other instrument then familiarity with the Bass Clef could be advantageous, but it's hardly relevant to what I do on the Crane.

But consider that if you were familiar with bass clef then you'll be able to read that clef with your concertina! There's an incredible amount of piano notated music out there which I find handy a for starting ideas on how to approach playing or arranging pieces on/for duet. And so much of that is free! I've got to Googling for a piece I want to learn... Not only can you download "sheet" music but midi files as well.

 

-- Rich --