Best Staff For Left-hand Of Duet?

[ragtimer]

OK Mike, I can't resist it. A piece (of piano music actually) that would benefit greatly from some form of sorting out, whether it's a third staff or colours for lh notes in right hand staffs and vice versa (the solution I dreamt up when thinking about this a while ago)

 

It's an arrangement of In A Sentimental Mood, by Elllington.

 

Here's the music; note the 'b'section goes into D flat; that's where it takes a lot of pencil scribblings to reduce it to playable level.

Nice piece. I don't think it would benefit from a straight pipe-organ style assignmenet of deep bass notes to a 3rd staff, since the lowest notes in the sheet music are just bottoms of arpeggios, and really are not logically separate.

 

What might help most is to have a treble staff on top, a bass staff on bottom, and a middle staff (of bass or maybe octava treble clef) that both hands can share.

 

That is, given fancy notation software that can spread a musical voice over two staves, with beams and stems holding the part together, you could keep all ntoes in a staff where they're easy to read, but the stem direction (up or down) tells which hand to use. Someone mentioned that scheme earlier.

 

Since my notatin program can't hack that (can Noteworthy)? I'd just keep the sheeet music as written, and notate LH and RH (or MS and MD, for purists) on notes to show which side to paly them on.

Now this is me playing; it tipped down yesterday so I was playing with the audacity thing; it's second take, unedited,,and I expect to do considerably better. Sal (wifey) comes in at the end and you hear me yell to her; I play almost all the notes as writ apart from a few I bring up an octave (and one I seem to have forgotten to let go of at one point...); I use all the tricks of changing fingers, dropping lots of melody notes into the left etc; there are several one finger 3 note chords.

Pretty good playing! How long did you work at the tune before you got that good at it? OK, a couple chords sound like the proverbial sea lions Maybe those chords should be broght up an octave, or maybe that's where you held on too long to a note.

I use most of the register of a 71 key Wheatstone Aeola Maccan duet dating from 1921 At the moment it still sounds pretty raw to me. Oh and the breathing's rotten too. NOW says he, finally cracking; tell me you would expect to do this on a bloody Crane.

If I were Bill Gates or Paul Allen, I'd offer a $10 million X-Prize to anyone who could play it nicely on a 46-key Hayden As it stands, it may be playable on my 67-key Bastari Hayden, which goes down to F on the LH ut only Midle C on the RH, and has buttons for Db and Ab on both sides. But no Gb, gotta grab F# on the far side.

 

Now, given a 70+ key Hayden or Crane, will those systems play the piece as well as your Maccann? That remains for experts on those systems to check in on.

 

So, given that anyone with fewer than 70 keys will have to (slightly?) re-arrange the piece, what staves should such a person use? I say stick with the Grand Staff. but others' mileage will vary, as noted in my previous post. --Mike K.

Edited December 21, 2007 by ragtimer

[Dirge]

It's showing which higher notes are picked up with the lh on this sort of stuff. Either splaying the staves to leave room for ledger notes (usually with the note name scribbled on afterwards) then writing lower notes in the treble; cumbersome; or noting treble notes as LH. That's my usual fix, but what actually happens is it all gets messy, I very quickly get the trickiest bits partially by heart and the music becomes an aide memoire.

 

As I said, if I was notating it I'd do any treble notes played lh or bass notes played rh in a different colour.

 

Edited to add: Thanks for the compliment; I think I've been beating it into submission for a couple of months now; I've had it playable for a while, but the last polish is taking me forever. I'm also always changing my mind exactly how to get the best out of it.

Edited December 21, 2007 by Dirge

[JimLucas]

... given fancy notation software that can spread a musical voice over two staves, with beams and stems holding the part together, you could keep all ntoes in a staff where they're easy to read, but the stem direction (up or down) tells which hand to use. Someone mentioned that scheme earlier.

That's the way a lot of piano music is done.

 

Since my notatin program can't hack that (can Noteworthy)?

I don't know about Noteworthy. I know that Finale can do that, but it's also expensive. On the other hand, I'm still happily using a 10-year-old version of Finale, which can do that and other things very nicely.

[ragtimer]

... given fancy notation software that can spread a musical voice over two staves, with beams and stems holding the part together, you could keep all ntoes in a staff where they're easy to read, but the stem direction (up or down) tells which hand to use. Someone mentioned that scheme earlier.

That's the way a lot of piano music is done.

Right. OTOH, one place where music notation is strictly grand staff is hymn books, intended for piano or organ accompniment, but the notes given are the four vocal parts. The soprano and alto are always on the upper, Treble staff, and the Tenor and Bass parts on the lower, which is always Bass. Thus, choir tenors must read Bass clef.

 

I bring this up because the piano accompanist must often make a lightning decision to grab a high Tenor note (off the lower clef) with the RH thumb, and sometimes a low Alto note (from upper staff) goes to the LH thumb. In other words, thee musical spots don't give a darn about what hand to use when; it's up to the player.

 

One can pencil in a bracket to indicate such manual "trespassing", after playing thru once or twice. Wonder if any software supports such brackets?

 

BTW, hymns are a great source of practice material for Duets. Try playing exactly the notes written; then figure out what to fake or substitute to make it practical.

Since my notatin program can't hack that (can Noteworthy)?

I don't know about Noteworthy. I know that Finale can do that, but it's also expensive. On the other hand, I'm still happily using a 10-year-old version of Finale, which can do that and other things very nicely.

Does your 10-year-old version work with Windows XP? I'm considering upgrading from 98SE to XP, adn wondering how many of my apps will refuse to work with the new OS. I don't even want to think about Vista ... Mike K.

[Dirge]

I found this the other day; it's actually an arrangement for violin and viola but it's a chance to try out treble in the right and C clef in the left. I had a go and gave up.

 

The trouble, as I see it, with this is that you have to put effort into getting used to it, and then there's nothing much else to play anyway except what you create yourself, and no one else will want to try to play it.

 

I couldn't decide if it was worth tackling, mind, it may be an 'orrible piece of music at bottom.

[m3838]

I found this the other day; it's actually an arrangement for violin and viola but it's a chance to try out treble in the right and C clef in the left. I had a go and gave up.

 

The trouble, as I see it, with this is that you have to put effort into getting used to it, and then there's nothing much else to play anyway except what you create yourself, and no one else will want to try to play it.

 

I couldn't decide if it was worth tackling, mind, it may be an 'orrible piece of music at bottom.

What is a C cleff?

I thought the Trebble cleff is C cleff. Is it just an octave lower?

Very interesting work with the rhythm. I would have to sit down and start freaking counting. Or perhaps find this performed or have some clever software play it first.

Is this bandoneon music?

Some clever dudes, them composers.

[Larry Stout]

What is a C cleff?

I thought the Trebble cleff is C cleff. Is it just an octave lower?

Very interesting work with the rhythm. I would have to sit down and start freaking counting. Or perhaps find this performed or have some clever software play it first.

Is this bandoneon music?

Some clever dudes, them composers.

C clef marks where the C is, it is most often used for viola parts. The treble clef is a G clef-- it marks where the G is. The bass clef marks where the F is. All of these can move so that they point out different lines as the indicate note (though moving them isn't all that common).

[oggie]

Is this bandoneon music?

 

I don't think so. The composer is Brazilian not Argentinian (Samba not Tango). Also I had a quick bash at it on my bandoneon and it don't work real well to put it mildly, the parts don't split properly left and right hand. Piazzolla used treble and bass clefs and I can't think of any of his peces (for bandoneon) that would use viola clef. This reads like a piece specifically written for stringed instruments.

 

All the best

 

Steve

[Dirge]

Sorry, been away bolting cars together. I shouldn't have said arrangement; I think it's as originally written for violin and viola, it's just the way it's displayed makes it look like a piece for one instrument, which is why I posted it.

 

It turned up when I was trying to find free music, as ever...http://www.ethosbrasil.com/nav/partit.htm should take you there; it has a lot of jazz themes with chords and lots of Brazilian music which I haven't investigated much yet.

[m3838]

OK Mike, I can't resist it. A piece (of piano music actually) that would benefit greatly from some form of sorting out, whether it's a third staff or colours for lh notes in right hand staffs and vice versa (the solution I dreamt up when thinking aout this a while ago)

 

It's an arrangement of In A Sentimental Mood, by Elllington.

 

Here's the music; note the 'b'section goes into D flat; that's where it takes a lot of pencil scribblings to reduce it to playable level.

 

Now this is me playing; it tipped down yesterday so I was playing with the audacity thing; it's second take, unedited,,and I expect to do considerably better. Sal (wifey) comes in at the end and you hear me yell to her; I play almost all the notes as writ apart from a few I bring up an octave (and one I seem to have forgotten to let go of at one point...); I use all the tricks of changing fingers, dropping lots of melody notes into the left etc; there are several one finger 3 note chords. I use most of the register of a 71 key Wheatstone Aeola Maccan duet dating from 1921 At the moment it still sounds pretty raw to me. Oh and the breathing's rotten too. NOW says he, finally cracking; tell me you would expect to do this on a bloody Crane.

Can it be arranged like these 2nd and 3rd bars for EC?

I think adding double As is a cheat, allowing to sort of maintain the ascend, and bring those chords down.

Haven't tried it yet, no time to sit down and experiment.

What is usually done, when the second part is way below EC's range?

Thanks.