Big Size Crane Duets

[m3838]

I think Marien nailed it as to why its not more prevalent to have the EC style thumb/pinky rests: you need to have that pinky free - my limited expierence with the duet has shown me how important the pinky is, I need it to hit the furthest rows and still hit notes on the other rows. For example, if you were hitting just the accidentals (black keys) on a crane, you need to hit both extremes of the instrument which would be difficult with just the inner 3 fingers.

 

Sorry, but the argument holds no value.

EC best played with four fingers per side, and heavy instruments are best played while sitting.

Pinkey rest is of doubtful importance.

But if you argue for it's usefullness, then the same principal applies fully to Crane Duet.

I guess, most duets are small enough, or the highest notes are squeaky enough not to be considered seriously, so Anglo type wrist strap is good enough. After all it gives more control over the dynamics, but only when played seated, it seems.

PS.

I'm quite sure those notorious "Music Hall Performers", who performed standing, were practicing sitting. So the ratio may go like 100 to 1. From listener point of view I don't see any benefits of concertina played up in the air.

[JimLucas]

Sorry, Jim, but I don't think Pythagoras is too relevant when considering 3 movable joints on each finger, not to mention some movement from the wrist.

More of a squashed and constantly changing hexagon shape than a triangle....

Pythagoras is always relevant!

 

(Every plane shape can be decomposed into a collection of right triangles. Also, the closer one's fingers get to maximum extension, the closer the curve of the fingers approximates a straight line.)

 

But you seem to have ignored the fact that I used Pythagoras' theorem to show that the increase in length was probably insignificant, and that I suggested that raising the bar might lead to other changes to your "hexagon shape" (e.g., shifting the entire hand forward) which could counteract and possibly even exceed the increased distance resulting from the increased height.

 

I asked Geoff "how much is 'much' higher?", because extremes can make a significant difference. A while back there was someone (not someone here on C.net) who was complaining about the furthest buttons on a standard English concertina being unreachable. But he had also made what he claimed to be an ergonomic improvement to his instrument, adding very high supports under his hands. I had measurements, and my quick Pythagorean computation showed that his supports had reduced his maximum reach by an entire row of buttons. (Of course, that must not have been the only factor limiting him, since I find I have room and to spare on Englishes with two more rows of buttons than a standard 48.)

[frogspawn]

I usually do sit to practice but I still hold the concertina up in the air as if I was standing. I adopted this for two reasons: (1) to avoid wear on bellows (or trousers?), and (2) because I always stand to sing. It required some muscle development in back, shoulders and arms, and I do find it difficult to align my left-hand fingers correctly, but that may have more to do with the basic asymmetrical (non-mirrored) nature of the layout and I will learn to compensate for that in time. When playing in parallel octaves it would probably be easier if the two ends were mirrored. Has such a concertina ever been produced?

 

I think Marien nailed it as to why its not more prevalent to have the EC style thumb/pinky rests: you need to have that pinky free - my limited expierence with the duet has shown me how important the pinky is, I need it to hit the furthest rows and still hit notes on the other rows. For example, if you were hitting just the accidentals (black keys) on a crane, you need to hit both extremes of the instrument which would be difficult with just the inner 3 fingers.

 

Sorry, but the argument holds no value.

EC best played with four fingers per side, and heavy instruments are best played while sitting.

Pinkey rest is of doubtful importance.

But if you argue for it's usefullness, then the same principal applies fully to Crane Duet.

I guess, most duets are small enough, or the highest notes are squeaky enough not to be considered seriously, so Anglo type wrist strap is good enough. After all it gives more control over the dynamics, but only when played seated, it seems.

PS.

I'm quite sure those notorious "Music Hall Performers", who performed standing, were practicing sitting. So the ratio may go like 100 to 1. From listener point of view I don't see any benefits of concertina played up in the air.

[JimLucas]

When playing in parallel octaves it would probably be easier if the two ends were mirrored. Has such a concertina ever been produced?

Yes, my Pitt-Taylor duet.

 

My experience is that the mirroring is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage.

 

What's more, I don't experience any difficulty in switching between the mirrored Pitt-Taylor and the non-mirrored Maccann or Crane.

[JimLucas]

I'm quite sure those notorious "Music Hall Performers", who performed standing, were practicing sitting.

Michael, do you have any evidence for this claim?

 

It seems unlikely to me that a person who constantly practiced in a sitting position would then automatically be able to perform while standing, even if we weren't talking about virtuoso quality.

[Marien]

Okay, Pythagoras is still relevant and applicable on concertina's. If I understand his theorem well (although I never spoke to him, and he did not see a concertina in his life), according to Pythagoras on a concertina with a lower the hand rest you can reach further (if your finger has a fixed length). So a higher bar would mean you could not reach further. Pythagoras çonclusion would be that DEcreasing the height would help to reach a further row. This may be have been the reason to make low bars on Crabbs at the beginning, like Geoff notifies.

 

It needs something else to explain why a higher hand rest would be appropriate. Looking at it ergonomically, on a relaxed hand the fingers show a slight bow. It needs some tension to keep the fingers in a fairly straight line (or may be impossible). All hands will be different, so it is useless to give fixed measures. I would say that the ideal height of the rest is in such way that when the palm of your hand rests on it in relaxed position, your fingers are just touching the top of the buttons, perhaps on the middle row.

 

It is also related to the position of your elbows and hands. The angle between your arms and your body will be less than 90 degrees (unless you have 100 folds in your bellows). While playing your hand will move and the hand and the end will make an angle at about 10 to 30 degrees(?).

 

The next ergonomical point, especially for the Crane, or other type concertina's that have button rows close to the handle, you will have to bend your fingers more to reach the buttons on the inner row, tending to move the palm of your hand up, so there has to be space for that.

 

These ergonomical things may (have) ask(ed) for slightly higher palm rests.

 

Another point is the size of the strap on a Crane. It is usually less narrow than on an anglo. A narrow strap may withhold your hand from reaching further and closer or give you cramps if you still want to. Maybe the freedom that a spacious and flexible strap that offers your hand to move around freely (although that also has a disadvantage) is more important to reach the "outest side row"?

 

Marien

[m3838]

I'm quite sure those notorious "Music Hall Performers", who performed standing, were practicing sitting.

Michael, do you have any evidence for this claim?

I have observed a number of high end accordion players practice and perform.

They perform almost invariably standing, unless they have problems with their backs or legs. But they practice invariably sitting unless they have problems with their brains.

Could it would be unlikely, that a person who practice while reading music, would be able to perform without it?

Given the age of many professional Duet players, and the weight and the size of their instruments, what made you think that they practiced hours upon hours while standing? And if you may be tempted to pick on age argument, all (yes, all) Duet players were going through the period, when they were old, but still able to play and perform. But again, some people may ask if I have evidence of that claim.

Oh, by the way, I watched a few Anglo players on youtube recently, holding the instruments up, or ancoring only one end on a leg, while dangling the other in the air. If you watch the bellows, you'll see horizontal "S" shape they take. I think compared to horizontal "C" shape of the bellows, fanned out on the knee, the "S" shape is less healthy. I also observed the loss of control of the instrument, manifesting itself in hectic rotations of the free end. If it is true, that bellows technique is most important in bellows driven instruments, than the bellows and ends must be steady. Watching Concertina dance in the air unpredictably, or rather, predictably hectic, and bellows sig-zagging that way or this way, I doubt that much of bellows' control is excersized.

It becomes kind of longish, but I have to note, that if Concertina players want to improve, they should look at the school of paying of Concertina close relative - Accordion. Accordion school is still alive and highly developed in comparison, and top players display exceptional control of the bellows. Note, how little extra play the left end has, no matter how small and light accoridon is.

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Maybe higher handrests would be the answer for longer reach.

These instruments were generally constructed with the handrests closer to the keys and made much higher to enable easier reach of the top notes. Because of these higher handrests, they were pierced so as not to impede sound projection.

Geoff, how much higher is "much" higher? Having the hand rest closer to the buttons helps the reach, assuming that one can still reach the closer buttons. But Pythagoras tells us that higher can't possibly extend the reach; in fact, it will reduce it. However, higher might make it easier to reach over the nearer buttons without accidentally pressing them, too.

 

On my Jeffries Crane, the top of the bar is 2 cm above the buttons, and the tip of my middle finger extends 12.5 cm from the front of the bar. If the bar were 1 cm higher (thus 3 cm above the buttons), that would reduce my forward reach by 2 mm. That's not much, only about half a button diameter, so I suppose that if a higher bar had enhancing effects (perhaps encouraging the hand to rotate forward?), they might more than compensate for the lost length. But that's just speculation on my part, an attempt to find a justification for the clam that raising the bar really does make it easier to reach the top notes.

 

Jim,

I apologise for not making my previous statement clear enough. Let me try again.

1. The handrest sited closer to the keyboard can enable the fingers to reach the top notes.

2. However, retaining a 'standard' height handrest, in many cases causes difficulty in the lower notes being operated with ease. An increase in the height of the handrest to about 1.5 inches can overcome this difficulty without appreciably reducing the reach gained in 1 above.

 

To all,

please accept that I am not a mathematician, scientist or specialist in acoustics, just a humble, supposedly retired, concertina maker. Anything that I may put forward concerning concertina construction is based on what has actually been found to work, not on theory.

 

Geoff

[Dirge]

In reply to M3838; Actually I don't think playing a big duet in the air and playing the accordion have anything to do with each other at all. An accordion is strapped to your chest. Even when seated it is that that stabilises one end in the same way as clamping one end of a box to your knee. Until you find someone who doesn't use chest straps on his accordian, playing a 'box in the air is completely unlike playing an accordion.

 

Look at the way Al Day works his bellows in those videos recently then tell me he needs to learn something from accordion players about bellows control. In that I know when I've got it wrong, I don't believe I do either.

 

Do you write these things just to suck people in?

 

Having fallen for it; everyone's been talking a lot about the people that played big Cranes on the boards but I don't think they existed. I have yet to find a single music hall player who used a Crane, and I do watch (I think I asked the question of the forum once), because it used to puzzle me.

 

I used to think it was simply that by the time Cranes were available all the pro's had learnt Maccan. But as a result of the pontifications here, I now think it is also the tall keyboard. With 6 columns of buttons (Maccan) 70 keys is about 12 rows, 80 keys 13 rows (and 2 odd keys). However, with 5 columns (Crane) 70 keys is 14 full rows (already out there with the biggest Maccan) and 80 is 16rows. That seems like a good reason why your straw poll only turned up 70's; no one fancied going any larger. So for a maximum range instrument, a Maccan is probably more manageable.

 

As your playing develops you do indeed use the entire instrument, I assure you. The more you practice the more ambitious you get in the music you tackle and the more notes you use.

 

Frogspawn, if you sit, perhaps with your legs crossed to raise one knee (I do) and press one end down on your knee while playing, your trousers and the bellows folds, the moving bit, should not meet, so don't worry about fabric wear; playing standing seems to add an extra complication, so I'd try it seated as well as standing, and it sounds as if your straps are too tight. Your hands should slide all the way in until your thumbs stop them going any further, and you shouldn't have to fight them in; I can slide my hands all the way into the straps without anchoring the 'box to do so. (very subjective business, strap tension)

 

Slow notes on a smallish duet means it needs attention.

 

Geoff; you posted yours while I was composing this epistle; I've just seen it. Absolutely right (Getting to the closest notes on the right hand is the most difficult part of playing mine, and that is indeed on standard rests) and well said!

Edited November 28, 2007 by Dirge

[m3838]

In reply to M3838; Actually I don't think playing a big duet in the air and playing the accordion have anything to do with each other at all. An accordion is strapped to your chest.

I'm not talking about the end that is strapped. I'm observing the crazy dance of the free end. Fanning the bellows seated on the knee can stop this dance. I also think the wiggle of bellows wears them just as badly as slight rubbing against the pants. Small accordions are very close to large Duets in size, may even be lighter, because Bass side of DBB has fewer reeds. So there is more in common than you think.

I also would like to point out, that Cajun players don't use straps (at least use of straps is not universal) and there are many people who play one or two row accordions without straps. Siting preferably, even when performing.

Among EC players, who play complex arrangements, I haven't seen one who plays standing without the neck strap of some sort. Most offers on Youtube (major source) are seated. Examples are below:

Simon Thoumire at

Danny Chapman at

Note how little the ends of their concertinas play uncontrollably.

 

Among AC players most of the best ones play sitted and with bellows going over the knee. Like the one below:

Niall Vallely at

 

Among standing performers it is interesting to see how tightly they control the ends of concertinas.

Brian Peters at

John Kirpatrick standing at

(again, not that much of free ends playing, and he habitually pumps with the left hand while the right end is ancored).

So my guess is that before you learn to steady the ends, you shouldn't play standing. Esp. large and heavy Duets.

Do you write these things just to suck people in?

 

To some degree.

I used to think it was simply that by the time Cranes were available all the pro's had learnt Maccan.

 

It doesn't really matter. The subject is holding a large one in the air vs. sitting. Although your comparison between Maccan and Crane are very interesting. Now I understand why people chose Maccans.

[frogspawn]

Thanks very much, Dirge, for your advice about loosening the straps. I was a bit reluctant to mess about with them because they are screwed on with old wood screws. Anyway, I loosened them just a little and I can now reach the top B in 'Portsmouth' much more easily! When just playing on the RH side only, I haven't found much advantage in anchoring the left end on my knee. Perhaps it's when using both hands that the anchoring pays off.

 

Frogspawn, if you sit, perhaps with your legs crossed to raise one knee (I do) and press one end down on your knee while playing, your trousers and the bellows folds, the moving bit, should not meet, so don't worry about fabric wear; playing standing seems to add an extra complication, so I'd try it seated as well as standing, and it sounds as if your straps are too tight. Your hands should slide all the way in until your thumbs stop them going any further, and you shouldn't have to fight them in; I can slide my hands all the way into the straps without anchoring the 'box to do so. (very subjective business, strap tension)

[Marien]

Richard,

For when you sit and play (like it is usually advised for piano accordions), you could try how it works out to put the right end on the left knee. The idea is that the left hand does the "hard work" pumping the bellows (and eventually playing chords) while the right hand would have more freedom for melody play.

Marien

 

... I haven't found much advantage in anchoring the left end on my knee. Perhaps it's when using both hands that the anchoring pays off.

[frogspawn]

Marien

 

I've tried this out but I didn't like the ergonomics of right end on the left knee, either with or without legs crossed. My body felt twisted and my right wrist felt cramped. However, sitting square on without legs crossed and with the right end on the right knee was comfortable and perhaps a good alternative when I am too tired to hold it up in the air. However, the latter still feels better. It gives me more room to move and, perhaps, to feel the rhythm.

 

Richard

 

Richard,

For when you sit and play (like it is usually advised for piano accordions), you could try how it works out to put the right end on the left knee. The idea is that the left hand does the "hard work" pumping the bellows (and eventually playing chords) while the right hand would have more freedom for melody play.

Marien

 

... I haven't found much advantage in anchoring the left end on my knee. Perhaps it's when using both hands that the anchoring pays off.

[Hooves]

Sorry, but the argument holds no value.

EC best played with four fingers per side, and heavy instruments are best played while sitting.

Pinkey rest is of doubtful importance.

But if you argue for it's usefullness, then the same principal applies fully to Crane Duet.

I guess, most duets are small enough, or the highest notes are squeaky enough not to be considered seriously, so Anglo type wrist strap is good enough. After all it gives more control over the dynamics, but only when played seated, it seems.

 

well actaully I agree with you: I only tried playing an EC for a short time, and in that time I was playing a rather oafish chinese box. I was still trying to learn, so, I believed players made use of that pinky rest more frequnetly. But I see your point, I jumped to a conclusion too quickly - I was just trying to establish a reason why they choose to use anglo style vs EC style hand rests, and I immediately thought of how much I need to use my pinky to hit notes.

 

So that kind of leaves the question why then do Duets have anglo style hand rests? I think the anglo style hand rest works pretty well, but, I'm certianly not as expierenced as most people on this forum. It works for me.

 

------------ added:

 

I compared my low C on my MaCaan to the Low C on my Crane: The Macaan note is sounding much faster than the Crane, so I will pull out my Dave Elliot book and see if anything really simple could be causing a problem, hopefully its not a gap issue and maybe just dust or sticking valves: I haven't opened the Crane up since I didn't want to take any chance of screwing it up, but now its time to do it.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Hooves