If They Can Build An English...

[Marien]

The systems I mostly play are Anglo's and the Crane. For some specific klezmer, greek and balcan stuff I use the anglo, but it is less free than chromatic type concertina´s. Some "gipsy jazz" ways are similar, but I would not use the anglo in unpredictable chord plots like in jazz.

 

My favorit for jazz and rag time stays the Crane above the EC or MacCann. Okay, it's personal. It is mainly because the Crane is the system I know best and the system I often play. I would not blindly recommend the Crane to anybody, but I would recommend the choice of the system you really feel at home for melody play and improvising. So for somebody else the EC, MacCann, jeffries duet, a Hayden (or anymore?) may be the favorit jazz concertina.

[JimLucas]

I know duet is supposed to have overlap, but I wonder if there has ever been developed a system with no overlap at all, that might faciltate bass with one hand and treble with the other, that seems more like a piano to me than the current duet systems....

Quite the contrary.

The piano has 100% overlap, since both hands can range over the entire keyboard.

O.K., you got me on that one. Good point. However I would like to see you play the far treble side with your left and the far bass side with your right at the same time without turning backwards.

I can't. Maybe nobody can. But that's not the point. Very often a note that is used in the one hand at one place in a piece will be wanted in the other hand at another place in the same piece. On a piano this is easy to do. E.g., if you play melody in one octave and chords in the octave below, you can easily shift both hands by one or more octaves... either up or down. With a non-overlapping keyboard that would be impossible.

 

Allthough I only studied piano briefly, for beginers at least there is a tendency for bass side with left hand and treble with right, at least thats how I was being taught.

While that's a common technique to teach beginners, it doesn't include a requirement that there be a rigid dividing line separating notes which can be played by the left hand from those which can be played by the right. E.g., middle C might be used as a right-hand melody note in a tune in the key of F, but also as part of a left-hand F chord in the form of an F-A-C triad. In such a case, there would be an overlap of (at least) that one note.

 

But the query remains: is there anybody who has a reference to such a non-overlapping system? I looked quickly on the web at definitions for "duet" and I didn't see any that siad the melody of the two parts had to overlap.

I believe that some individuals have said here on C.net that overlap is part of the definition of a "duet" concertina layout, but I think most of us would agree that while it's a very useful characteristic, it's not an essential concept. In fact, I think it should be entirely possible to have a "duet" in which there's a gap between the ranges of the two hands, i.e., that there could be notes between those of the two hands that aren't found in either hand. But the fact is that overlap is useful. It's so useful that as the total number of buttons/notes on a duet concertina increases, the number of notes/buttons that overlap between the ends generally increases, as well.

 

As soon as you start using all the range of the duet, which is perhaps when you start playing written music, as opposed to trad stuff in a position you have chosen yourself for convenience, you need the overlap. Difficult right hand fingering sequences can be magically resolved just by playing a few of the notes on the overlap area of the left hand. Throw away the overlap and you severely limit the brute's versatility. It feels odd to suddenly play just one melody note, say, on the left but it's a valuable tool for producing flowing playing.

That's one way of using overlap. Here's another:

If you want to play harmony in thirds, yet keep each of the two parts in separate hands, a movement in the melody of two notes of the scale will require that a note that was played in the one hand will then be needed in the other hand. This is only possible if the note can be found in both hands. And that is "overlap".

[ragtimer]

Wow, I miss reading C.Net for a few days and this great topic breaks out!

I play Hayden Duet (Stagi 46k) and used to compose and play piano ragtime.

A few of my own thoughts:

 

I can understand there isn't much market for entry-level Haydens, since the Stagi has that covered for about $900. I doubt that Wakker's "Jack" technology could be extended to 46 keys and reeds, certainly not at the Jackie/Rochelle price point. The densely packed matrix of buttons in a Duet, and the large number of reeds, is just harder to cram in there without some serious engineering and craftsmanship.

 

I DO wish someone would produce a low-cost, hybrid, Hayden Duet with maybe 54 buttons. Wakker is about to produce up-scale 46k and then larger modles. Personally, I don't so much need a better Hayden as much as I'd like a bigger one. Accordion reeds sound just fine to me, and are plenty responsive as far as I can tell in my limited experience.

 

Recently I've been looking at fingering charts for other Duets, and came ot the conclusion that the Crane/Triumph would be the better way to go. Other posts here seem to support that idea. Even tho I've heard David Cornell play his big Maccann, I don't expect to live long enough to come close on that system.

 

I do think the Hayden system is excellent, tho having some problems with minor scales and certain intervals. If I never get around to learning another Duet scheme (or EC or Anglo), I'd still be a happy camper.

 

Ragtime is piano music -- needs a decaying tone per note to sound best. So a guitar works well. I've always had problems with ragtime played by wind or string bands -- the oom-pahs tend to really get muddy when played in sustained tones. Worse yet, ragtime melodic lines are often arpeggiated (broken) chords, that sound best on a piano with the sustaining pedal held down. When played as single notes by a sustained-tone instrument, the harmonic beauty is lost -- and if the notes are all sounded together, it's muck!

 

Nonetheless, I have arranged most of my rags for my barrel organ (pipes), and am slowly learning them on my Hayden. The secret is "keep the notes short!"

 

I've heard Rich Morse play ragtime on his Hayden, and it sounds terrific.

Enough for now. --Mike K.

Edited June 21, 2007 by ragtimer

[m3838]

your version of ragtime will be very strange.

 

this sounds like fun and may get you to music never heard before.

May or may not, the point is that there is no system that is better for the ragtime on instruments other than piano. Every other instrument will demand adaptation, with resulting music been very different from classic Ragtime.

Therefore the original question, "which system of Duet Concertina is better for ragtime?" is answered by "Depends on what you can do with it".

If the question meant "Which system of Duet Concertina will give me the closest approximation of original ragtime?", the answer is "None".

I percieve the sound of concertina to be very unique, even "weird".

So to me, the repertore must feed on this "weirdness". Irish traditional music certainly adapted Concertina. Boer music is shaped by it too, as I understand.

But with other genres, Concertina must be used very delicately, it is capable of making a mockery of itself. All and all, very difficult and demanding instrument. May be it's the reason it fell out of fashion.

[Hooves]

your version of ragtime will be very strange.

 

this sounds like fun and may get you to music never heard before.

May or may not, the point is that there is no system that is better for the ragtime on instruments other than piano. Every other instrument will demand adaptation, with resulting music been very different from classic Ragtime.

Therefore the original question, "which system of Duet Concertina is better for ragtime?" is answered by "Depends on what you can do with it".

If the question meant "Which system of Duet Concertina will give me the closest approximation of original ragtime?", the answer is "None".

I percieve the sound of concertina to be very unique, even "weird".

So to me, the repertore must feed on this "weirdness". Irish traditional music certainly adapted Concertina. Boer music is shaped by it too, as I understand.

But with other genres, Concertina must be used very delicately, it is capable of making a mockery of itself. All and all, very difficult and demanding instrument. May be it's the reason it fell out of fashion.

 

Thanks for all your input. I am weighing all the opinions and bits of wisdom on my journey through concertina playing and maintenance.

 

I am surprised by the diversity of styles reprsented by the players, thanks agin for contributing your insights.

 

I am trying not to post too much as even I am sick of seeing my name on the posts!

[stuart estell]

I know duet is supposed to have overlap, but I wonder if there has ever been developed a system with no overlap at all, that might faciltate bass with one hand and treble with the other, that seems more like a piano to me than the current duet systems....

Quite the contrary.

The piano has 100% overlap, since both hands can range over the entire keyboard.

 

 

O.K., you got me on that one. Good point. However I would like to see you play the far treble side with your left and the far bass side with your right at the same time without turning backwards.

 

Allthough I only studied piano briefly, for beginers at least there is a tendency for bass side with left hand and treble with right, at least thats how I was being taught.

 

 

Actually there's a good deal of contemporary piano music that requires exactly that - playing of upper extremities of the keyboard with the left hand and vice versa. And lots of jumping around from end to end of the instrument. Webern's Variations (I'm only using this piece as an example as I know it well) feature such writing all the way through; it's a fiendish piece to play, but if you reassign the hands in an ostensibly more rational way, it really has an adverse effect on the end musical result.

[Hooves]

Quite the contrary.

The piano has 100% overlap, since both hands can range over the entire keyboard.

 

 

I wasn't going to post again on this topic, however after thinking about this issue a little more I think you would have to say a piano has NO overlap: there is nowhere on a piano where you have 2 of the same notes.

 

Yes, you can use each hand to play notes but you never play the exact same note with both hands, nor can you have a unison as there is only one key to hit.

 

Better to not even compare concertinas and pianos, or with other instruments for that mater. Two different beasts with thier own techniques and advantages. I shall not put my lovely little Lachenal on the scale with a Steinway again.

 

----

 

Taking wagers on how many people will be offended by my use of "Steinway"...

[JimLucas]

The piano has 100% overlap, since both hands can range over the entire keyboard.

...after thinking about this issue a little more I think you would have to say a piano has NO overlap: there is nowhere on a piano where you have 2 of the same notes.

Aw, you know I can't resist.

 

Really, it's a question of what is "overlapping".

• On most concertinas (even the English and anglo, for their own reasons), there's an overlap between the notes playable by the one hand and the notes playable by the other. On the piano, this sort of overlap is 100%.
  
• On most duet concertinas there are at least a few notes which can be played independently and simultaneously by two different reeds... one in each hand. That's a different concept of overlap, even though it's a consequence of the first. Standard even-tempered English-system concertinas also have such "simultaneous overlap", though it covers 2 separated notes per octave, rather than a continuous range. A standard anglo doesn't have such an overlap between the hands, because those duplications are in opposite bellows directions, but with the G/A duplications (on a C/G), there are a couple of notes which can be sounded by two reeds at once in a single hand. As you've noted, a piano doesn't have this "simultaneous" kind of overlap at all.
  
• A standard anglo does have its own unique kind of "overlap"... certain notes which can be played by either hand, but not simultaneously (because the one is on push and the other on pull).
  
• On all concertinas, each of the above kinds of overlap between hands involves an overlap of the notes on two separate keyboards. To say that the piano doesn't have that kind of overlap is misleading, since it implies that it could. The concept of overlap between separate keyboards is meaningless when applied to a single keyboard. (An organ with two or more manuals would be a different story.)
  

Yes, you can use each hand to play notes but you never play the exact same note with both hands,...

At different times, you certainly can.

 

...nor can you have a unison as there is only one key to hit.

Unison, no. (I won't pick nits about multiple strings per note.) But I've seen quite a few piano pieces where the same note is notated in both hands at once. Does this mean that the player should choose for him/herself which hand to use, or does it indicate that the player should strike the same key with two fingers (one on each hand) at the same time?

 

Better to not even compare concertinas and pianos, or with other instruments for that mater.

Oh, I think it's fine to compare any two things, no matter how disparate, as long as one is careful about the conclusions one draws. E.g., in comparing a piano with a kitchen blender, I note that:

• Lifting the cover on a piano while it's in operation usually produces a louder sound.
  
• Lifting the cover on a blender while it's in operation often produces a mess!
  

[stuart estell]

Unison, no. (I won't pick nits about multiple strings per note.) But I've seen quite a few piano pieces where the same note is notated in both hands at once. Does this mean that the player should choose for him/herself which hand to use, or does it indicate that the player should strike the same key with two fingers (one on each hand) at the same time?

 

In my experience it's usually a direction from the composer to think the note in both parts. There are times when it makes sense to take a key down with both fingers - if there's a need to hold it down in one hand while the other goes off and does something else, even if it's previously formed part of the melodic line.

 

I'm not sure I've explained that very clearly. I know what I mean, anyway

 

The other thing about the piano is that you can strike a note while it's still sounding because of the sustain pedal; it is, after all, just an overgrown hammered dulcimer. Beethoven famously called it "that most inadequate of instruments" or something similar. Certainly I think it involves greater use of smoke and mirrors to achieve musical effect than most other instruments

[JimLucas]

...the piano...

Certainly I think it involves greater use of smoke and mirrors to achieve musical effect than most other instruments

Is that the purpose of the candelabra on top... to provide the smoke?

[Marien]

... Irish traditional music certainly adapted Concertina. Boer music is shaped by it too, as I understand.

But with other genres, Concertina must be used very delicately, it is capable of making a mockery of itself. All and all, very difficult and demanding instrument. May be it's the reason it fell out of fashion.

 

I agree that concertina is a demanding instrument, but I don´t understand why for irish and boer music playing delicately would be less important. Do you mean that for italian tarantella´s, french bourrees, greek rembetico songs or themes of a computer game on the concertina should be played more delicately than for irish or boer music?

 

True that other music than Irish and Boer do not have a huge concertina tradition, but to me this is just the thing that makes it interesting to try out different styles on a concertina and do something else as everybody does. I can imagine concertina would be great in a Cajun band, playing wild melodies. I don't mean just white noise. Also when playing loud and fast, the music should be played delicate. Like for all instruments, there are more ways to produce sound with it and I think it is good to do experiments, monitor my play and perhaps revise my way of playing.

 

I think the taste of the player should decide what music to play. If it does not fit in a tradition, no problem to me as long as the audience likes to hear the music.

[m3838]

I agree that concertina is a demanding instrument, but I don´t understand why for irish and boer music playing delicately would be less important. Do you mean that for italian tarantella´s, french bourrees, greek rembetico songs or themes of a computer game on the concertina should be played more delicately than for irish or boer music?

 

True that other music than Irish and Boer do not have a huge concertina tradition, but to me this is just the thing that makes it interesting to try out different styles on a concertina and do something else as everybody does. I can imagine concertina would be great in a Cajun band, playing wild melodies...

 

I think the taste of the player should decide what music to play. If it does not fit in a tradition, no problem to me as long as the audience likes to hear the music.

 

That's my intention to take concertina to genres, other than the ones, where concertina was widely adapted. Whether or not I will be successful is to be seen. It is not guaranteed.

Yes, playing Cajun accordion in Cajun style is more forgiving, than playing Eastern European music. Playing an Irish Jig on Anglo Concertina is more forgiving than French Bouree. There is a reason for German Concertina been adapted in Irish tradition and not German, German Bandoneon been adapted in Argentina and not Russia and Austria.

I see aggressive honk of English made high end Concertina standing out in Cajun band as objectionalbe, and lesser quality been too week and thin.

Italian Tarantella needs Oompa and MMM tuning, pretty wet. I only once heard Bouree on AC well done, by a professional. To insert unusual or historically rejected instrument into an established tradition is interesting, but riskey. That's why probably 70% of this forum consists of people who like Irish, some 20%, who like English, and the tiny rest, who dares to apply concertina to other genres.

As one of my collegues at work said after I played Yiddish tune (Pripechek) on Morse Albion: "A concertina is Electric Guitar of Accordions", because of it's aggressive cutting tone. To deal with this quality is a major undertaking in genres, where this aggrressiveness is not asked for.

To me, EC applied to Classical Music is a mind twister. It's very interesting to watch Youtube in this respect. After watching a tune on EC, you usually can watch the same tune, played on other instruments. Mostly other instruments sound better. Probably because Classical Music was written without Concertina in mind. Or because Concertina playing school generally is weaker, than piano, guitar and violin. Or perhabs the Complexity/difficulty/sound ratio is not optimal. The best compliment I heard so far was "Cute". I take it.

[Marien]

 

I agree that concertina is a demanding instrument, but I don´t understand why for irish and boer music playing delicately would be less important. Do you mean that for italian tarantella´s, french bourrees, greek rembetico songs or themes of a computer game on the concertina should be played more delicately than for irish or boer music?

 

True that other music than Irish and Boer do not have a huge concertina tradition, but to me this is just the thing that makes it interesting to try out different styles on a concertina and do something else as everybody does. I can imagine concertina would be great in a Cajun band, playing wild melodies...

 

I think the taste of the player should decide what music to play. If it does not fit in a tradition, no problem to me as long as the audience likes to hear the music.

 

That's my intention to take concertina to genres, other than the ones, where concertina was widely adapted. Whether or not I will be successful is to be seen. It is not guaranteed.

Yes, playing Cajun accordion in Cajun style is more forgiving, than playing Eastern European music. Playing an Irish Jig on Anglo Concertina is more forgiving than French Bouree. There is a reason for German Concertina been adapted in Irish tradition and not German, German Bandoneon been adapted in Argentina and not Russia and Austria.

I see aggressive honk of English made high end Concertina standing out in Cajun band as objectionalbe, and lesser quality been too week and thin.

Italian Tarantella needs Oompa and MMM tuning, pretty wet. I only once heard Bouree on AC well done, by a professional. To insert unusual or historically rejected instrument into an established tradition is interesting, but riskey. That's why probably 70% of this forum consists of people who like Irish, some 20%, who like English, and the tiny rest, who dares to apply concertina to other genres.

As one of my collegues at work said after I played Yiddish tune (Pripechek) on Morse Albion: "A concertina is Electric Guitar of Accordions", because of it's aggressive cutting tone. To deal with this quality is a major undertaking in genres, where this aggrressiveness is not asked for.

To me, EC applied to Classical Music is a mind twister. It's very interesting to watch Youtube in this respect. After watching a tune on EC, you usually can watch the same tune, played on other instruments. Mostly other instruments sound better. Probably because Classical Music was written without Concertina in mind. Or because Concertina playing school generally is weaker, than piano, guitar and violin. Or perhabs the Complexity/difficulty/sound ratio is not optimal. The best compliment I heard so far was "Cute". I take it.

 

Hmm.. maybe this is the wrong topic.

To my opinion the tarantella, in the italian tradition, does not need an accordion at all. It's dancing music, many yimes a song with a steady beat on a drum. The used instruments for it are harps, lutes or bag pipes. That the melody of some tarantella's have been picked up by wetly tuned italion accordeons in the streets of Napoli and Paris is fine to me, but it does not convince me that a tarantella would not sound on a concertina, that it is not in the italian tradition seems to be related to the fact that they just did not have concertina's in Italy. Also for other musical traditions that do not use the concertina. I agree that there are tunes that are more or less suitable for a concertina, but I dont think that suitability has anything to do with regional differences in folk music.