Tedrow Concertina?

[Christopher]

quote]Are you aware that we send our concertinas to people (in North America) for a week's perusal (test driving)? Better than an mp3! Though that doesn't absolve us for not having sound clips on our site. That's something we've been planning on doing for awhile.... So on the strength of this tread we're pushing that project up and hope to have some tunes up within a few weeks.

 

No, I was not aware of that. That is a great offer. I just may be taking you up on that in the near future. Thanks so much for listening in.

 

Kind regards

[Henk van Aalten]

Henk,

Just curious, what are your overall impressions of the W-A1? And how does it stack up to its direct competitors?

 

Bill you can find my impressions in this topic.

[dwinterfield]

Though that doesn't absolve us for not having sound clips on our site. That's something we've been planning on doing for awhile.... So on the strength of this tread we're pushing that project up and hope to have some tunes up within a few weeks.

 

I strongly recommend mp3 clips to all concertina makers who sell through the web. I recently went through the same sort of search described in this thread and ended up with a Guens-Wakker 30-button anglo. I'm very happy with the instrument and the clip on the web site was a significant determining factor. To me, his instrument (not the new concertina reed model) sounds less like an accordian-reeded concertina. I don't know Wim, but I get the sense he spends a lot of time obsessing about the nature of sound and how to reproduce it. The sound quality is very similar to a restored 20-button steel reed Lachenal that I have. The fit and finish are superb.

 

Again my sense is that all the contemporary makers are producing fine instruments, but you really need to put some clips your web sites. I sense I'm not the only beginner willing to commit to a relatively expensive instrument. Regretably, most of us are pretty isolated geographically so the web is the only way we have to understand how to buy. Words are good, pictures are better but music is best of all.

[Chris Allert]

Thanks for your input. The stainless Edgley should be a nice contrast to your Tedrow. The key is interesting to me. Why an Ab/Eb? Are you playing music with woodwind musicians?

 

no, i'm not playing with any other instruments. i've really enjoyed listening to a lot of uilleann pipers and they often have sets of pipes that are tuned quite a bit lower. for this instrument i've asked frank edgley to tune the Bb (same place as D on a c/g) to 480 hertz and to tune everything else in just intervals relative to that. i wanted to start playing some of the chords that pipers play on the regulators, and they'll sound a lot nicer on this instrument. i decided on D = 480 based on a low set of pipes that willie clancy plays on a lot of his records. the reason for having a just d-fingered scale is that most irish tunes are in g and d and their relative minors. here's a chart to visualize how this scale is tuned:

 

Eb
	G
Bb			  B
	D
F			   F#
	A
C			   C#
	E
			G#

 

the idea is that you tune everything in pure fifths going down the chart, pure major thirds going diagonally down, and pure minor thirds going diagonally up. all the triangles you can draw on the chart will be pure triads. translating the above chart to ratios, you get

 

  16/15
	  4/3
  8/5			5/3
	   1
  6/5			5/4
	  3/2
  9/5		   15/8
	  9/8
			 45/32

 

and then if you multiply all these values by 480 you get

 

512
	640
768			 800
	480
576			 600
	720
864			 900
	540
			675

[Christopher]

 

Thanks for your input. The stainless Edgley should be a nice contrast to your Tedrow. The key is interesting to me. Why an Ab/Eb? Are you playing music with woodwind musicians?

 

no, i'm not playing with any other instruments. i've really enjoyed listening to a lot of uilleann pipers and they often have sets of pipes that are tuned quite a bit lower. for this instrument i've asked frank edgley to tune the Bb (same place as D on a c/g) to 480 hertz and to tune everything else in just intervals relative to that. i wanted to start playing some of the chords that pipers play on the regulators, and they'll sound a lot nicer on this instrument. i decided on D = 480 based on a low set of pipes that willie clancy plays on a lot of his records. the reason for having a just d-fingered scale is that most irish tunes are in g and d and their relative minors. here's a chart to visualize how this scale is tuned:

 

Eb
	G
Bb			  B
	D
F			   F#
	A
C			   C#
	E
			G#

 

the idea is that you tune everything in pure fifths going down the chart, pure major thirds going diagonally down, and pure minor thirds going diagonally up. all the triangles you can draw on the chart will be pure triads. translating the above chart to ratios, you get

 

  16/15
	  4/3
  8/5			5/3
	   1
  6/5			5/4
	  3/2
  9/5		   15/8
	  9/8
			 45/32

 

and then if you multiply all these values by 480 you get

 

512
	640
768			 800
	480
576			 600
	720
864			 900
	540
			675

 

 

wow. cool. im a beginner, but i see whats going on. however, i see the 5ths going down the row, the major thirds going down diagonally, but i dont see the minor thirds going up diagonally. for example, you mean a B to G, and/or G to Eb?

[Chris Allert]

wow. cool. im a beginner, but i see whats going on. however, i see the 5ths going down the row, the major thirds going down diagonally, but i dont see the minor thirds going up diagonally. for example, you mean a B to G, and/or G to Eb?

 

sorry, i mean't you get the minor thirds going down diagonally the other way. so all the pure minor thirds in this system are:

 

G-Bb, B-D, D-F, F#-A, A-C, C#-E

 

all the pure major thirds are:

 

Eb-G, G-B, Bb-D, D-F#, F-A, A-C#, C-E, E-G#

 

the pure major triads are:

 

Eb-G-Bb, Bb-D-F, F-A-C, G-B-D, D-F#-A, A-C#-E

 

and the pure minor triads are:

 

G-Bb-D, D-F-A, A-C-E, B-D-F#, F#-A-C#, C#-E-G#

 

 

to find all the other pure intervals of a given size, draw a line from D to the interval you want, then transpose that line to everywhere else it fits in the chart. for example, D-E is a pure second (9/8), and there are five other places in the chart you can draw the same size line. D-C is a minor seventh (9/5), and there are three other 9/5 intervals in this system. the C natural on the pipes regulators usually is tuned to 9/5 of the drone rather than 16/9 (inverse major second), which gives it a really smooth sound against the drone and also means it is a pure major third from the A which is a perfect fifth from D. if you know csound or another sound synthesis language, you can easily experiment with all these intervals to get a better feeling for how they sound.

[Christopher]

 

sorry, i mean't you get the minor thirds going down diagonally the other way. so all the pure minor thirds in this system are:

 

G-Bb, B-D, D-F, F#-A, A-C, C#-E

 

all the pure major thirds are:

 

Eb-G, G-B, Bb-D, D-F#, F-A, A-C#, C-E, E-G#

 

the pure major triads are:

 

Eb-G-Bb, Bb-D-F, F-A-C, G-B-D, D-F#-A, A-C#-E

 

and the pure minor triads are:

 

G-Bb-D, D-F-A, A-C-E, B-D-F#, F#-A-C#, C#-E-G#

 

 

to find all the other pure intervals of a given size, draw a line from D to the interval you want, then transpose that line to everywhere else it fits in the chart. for example, D-E is a pure second (9/8), and there are five other places in the chart you can draw the same size line. D-C is a minor seventh (9/5), and there are three other 9/5 intervals in this system. the C natural on the pipes regulators usually is tuned to 9/5 of the drone rather than 16/9 (inverse major second), which gives it a really smooth sound against the drone and also means it is a pure major third from the A which is a perfect fifth from D. if you know csound or another sound synthesis language, you can easily experiment with all these intervals to get a better feeling for how they sound.

 

how nice! again, im a beginner, but understand some theory (from playing fiddle) and see how this could be very useful. i suppose that, using this knowledge, you can simply shift a 'finger pattern' from 2 or 3 keys around the buttons to produce the background chord(s) you need.

 

its been my experience that when two different instruments are playing and the timbre of the instruments are in some way similar, that the result is very pleasing to the ear. so, although ive not heard the pipes and concertina playing together, i can imagine how the result is very nice, particularly if the concertina is in sync with the underlying chords of the tune..as you have demonstrated that can readily be accomplished. thanks for taking the time.

 

tell me, when you first pick up your concertina for the day, do you have 'warm up' exercises that you go through on the concertina before launching into tunes? and/or, can you recommend a good book/tape/cd for beginners? i taught myself the fiddle, but first used a book that taught scales, arpegios, different bowing and slurring, and so on. the book proved to be invaluable. is there a good counterpart for the concertina that you know of?

[Guest]

I have a Norman metal ended Anglo, which has a lovely bright sound, although I admit I prefer the more mellow tones of my Lachanel.

 

I wouldn't be put off by the so-called "mid range" instruments. Not every one can aspire to own a Jefferies, and there are some great mid-ranger concertinas out there (Normans, Tedrow, Edgleys etc).

 

While there is no substution for trying out an instrument yourself, I think getting someone to play it for you down the phone is a better indication than an mp3 or cd. But sometimes you just have to take what info you can get and go for it

 

You are lucky to be in the US. I would love to get a Tedrow or an Edgley, but the exchange rate and import duty is a killer!

[Chris Allert]

how nice! again, im a beginner, but understand some theory (from playing fiddle) and see how this could be very useful. i suppose that, using this knowledge, you can simply shift a 'finger pattern' from 2 or 3 keys around the buttons to produce the background chord(s) you need.

 

just to be clear, the charts i made have nothing to do with button layout and fingering, they are simply to help visualize how pitches are related to one another in the system of unequal temprament that my new concertina will employ. but on a typical new concertina (or any other new instrument) all intervals of a given size will sound the same since that's how equal temprament works. also, just so you know, bob tedrow can also tune any concertina he builds to any system you want. i decided to have him tune mine to equal temprament since i wasn't sure exactly what i wanted yet.

 

as for shifting fingering patterns to change keys, this doesn't really work on either the anglo or english systems. it would theoretically work on a hayden duet, since these have a key layout similar to a continental chromatic accordion, but i've heard that in practice it doesn't really work that well because there simply aren't enough buttons to give you much room for shifting around. playing in different keys on the english is probably easier than on the anglo, since the chromatic layout is more logically laid out. on the anglo, there is really no rhyme or reason to how the accidental row is arranged, and so each key has a radically different fingering (and a radically different rhythm due to which notes you get in which direction). like most players of irish music, i really only know how to play tunes in G and D.

 

its been my experience that when two different instruments are playing and the timbre of the instruments are in some way similar, that the result is very pleasing to the ear. so, although ive not heard the pipes and concertina playing together, i can imagine how the result is very nice, particularly if the concertina is in sync with the underlying chords of the tune..as you have demonstrated that can readily be accomplished. thanks for taking the time.

 

i think the album "the wind among the reeds" by members of the mccarthy family has a concertina and pipes playing together. i haven't heard this album, but i think i'll order a copy from the button box now. in my earlier discussion on the topic of equal temprament, someone commented that he had tuned jacqueline mccarthy's concertina for this album. here's a link to that discussion:

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2913

 

 

 

tell me, when you first pick up your concertina for the day, do you have 'warm up' exercises that you go through on the concertina before launching into tunes? and/or, can you recommend a good book/tape/cd for beginners? i taught myself the fiddle, but first used a book that taught scales, arpegios, different bowing and slurring, and so on. the book proved to be invaluable. is there a good counterpart for the concertina that you know of?

 

i usually just play a few easy tunes. then when i'm warmed up, i try to work on hard stuff, or else i play more tunes that i enjoy. there are a few tunes that i'll probably never manage to get quite right. but i still work on them for some reason. i haven't seen any good books on playing irish music on the anglo concertina, but i haven't seen frank edgley's book yet so i could be wrong. there is no substitute for getting instruction from an experienced player, and for people in many parts of the world, attending one of noel hill's workshops is the best option available. from reading frank edgley's comments on this forum, i expect that his book is good, and since he includes it with all concertinas he builds, i'll post my impressions of it here when i get it. also, i haven't seen john william's book or video, but since he is an accomplished irish player, i'd expect his book to be somewhat helpful for learning this style of playing.