Roger Hare Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Recently I have come across several instances of M:4/4l in ancient ABC transcriptions. For example: X:2104 T:Coffee and Tea C:Trad S:Northumbrian Minstrelsy M:4/4 O:England F:England K:G "C"ef| "G"g2 d2 BGdB| "G"Gggf ~g2 ed| "G"g2 d2 BGdB| "D7"Aefg ~f2 ed|\ M:4/4l "G"g4 d2c2 B2G2 BcdB|\ M:4/4 "G"Gggf ~g2 ed|\ M:4/4l "G"g4 d2c2 B2G2 BcdB|\ M:4/4 "D7"Aefg ~f2:: ed| "G"BgBg (3def gd| "G"BgBg ~f2 ed| "G"BgBg (3dgf gd| "D7"Aegf gfed|\ M:4/4l "G"B2g2B2g2 fgfe g2d2|\ M:4/4 "G"BgBg ~f2 ed|\ M:4/4l "G"B2g2B2g2 fgfe g2B2|\ M:4/4 "D7"Aefg ~f2| The context is different in different examples. For instance, in the above, the bars following the M:4/4l all appear to be 'overfull', but replacing each instance of M:4/4l with L:1/16, and the following M:4/4 with L:1/8 would supply a 'fix' (of some sort). However I have seen an example (can't find it now) where the 'fix' would be to replace M:4/4l with L:1/4 which is in some sense, exactly the opposite approach. I'm deeply puzzled... Does anyone have any idea what this means please? I've looked at some 'early' ABC documentation and can't find any reference to this sort of stuff. Some additional points: I've also seen examples of M:6/8l and M:3/4l Several of the instances of this seem to be in transcriptions of tunes from Northumbrian Minstrelsy, (though there are others). Is there an ancient transcription of Northumbrian Minstrelsy out there 'in the wild' which has got broken up, and lost any accompanying explanation of what this stuff means? Any advice welcome. Ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wild Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 The G at the start of the 1st full bar should be the same length as the G at the start of bar 5. However, that is typed as G4, i.e.twice the length. I think that that double length applies to the other notes in that bar and the similarly affected bars. I cannot explain what has happened here, but I am inclined to think that the writer has made errors in the ABC transcription. If you remove the M:4/4I references, and halve the note length in the affected bars, I think this will give you the correct notation. I have attached here an image of the relevant page from the book. Northumbrian Minstrelsy_P164.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Comparing @Roger Hare’s abc notation with the pdf that @John Wild provided leads me to think that there’s no way a human being would have come up with that abc solution given what the page of music looks like. My guess is that the abc is the product of some misguided rudimentary* software attempting to interpret the hand-drawn music notation. *I say “rudimentary” because Roger uses the word “ancient” to describe the sources of the abc and software that can satisfactorily interpret music notation from paper sources is only now becoming reasonably mature. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wild Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 I have put into practice what I suggested above, and this is the result. It seems to confirm my suggestion. I have removed the repeat marks after bar 8, as these are not in the version in the book. Individuals can of course insert them if they wish. X:2104 T:Coffee and Tea C:Trad S:Northumbrian Minstrelsy M:4/4 O:England F:England K:G "C"ef|"G"g2 d2 BGdB|"G"Gggf ~g2 ed|"G"g2 d2 BGdB|"D7"Aefg ~f2 ed| "G"g2 dc BG B/c/d/B/|"G"Gggf ~g2 ed|"G"g2 dc BG B/c/d/B/| "D7"Aefg ~f2||ed|"G"BgBg (3def gd|"G"BgBg ~f2 ed|"G"BgBg (3dgf gd|"D7"Aegf gfed| "G"BgBg f/g/f/e/ gd|"G"BgBg ~f2 ed|"G"BgBg f/g/f/e/ gB|"D7"Aefg ~f2|| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hare Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 (edited) 5 hours ago, John Wild said: The G at the start of the 1st full bar should be the same length as the G at the start of bar 5. However, that is typed as G4, i.e.twice the length. I think that that double length applies to the other notes in that bar and the similarly affected bars. I cannot explain what has happened here, but I am inclined to think that the writer has made errors in the ABC transcription. If you remove the M:4/4I references, and halve the note length in the affected bars, I think this will give you the correct notation. I have attached here an image of the relevant page from the book. Northumbrian Minstrelsy_P164.pdfFetching info... John thank you. Your thoughts mirror mine almost exactly. The ABC code you posted a few minutes ago looks more or less exactly like what I came up with as a 'solution'. Thank you for the image from the book - that saves me a trip to the Music Library in Manchester to have a look at the damn' thing... 4 hours ago, David Barnert said: Comparing @Roger Hare’s abc notation with the pdf that @John Wild provided leads me to think that there’s no way a human being would have come up with that abc solution given what the page of music looks like. My guess is that the abc is the product of some misguided rudimentary* software attempting to interpret the hand-drawn music notation. *I say “rudimentary” because Roger uses the word “ancient” to describe the sources of the abc and software that can satisfactorily interpret music notation from paper sources is only now becoming reasonably mature. David thank you. I had not thought of this stuff being the product of 'software', but I am now inclined to think that your observation that "there’s no way a human being would have come up with that abc solution given what the page of music looks like" may well be at the bottom of how this stuff appears[1]. I wonder if anyone is still using such software? The rudimentary nature of any such software might help to 'explain' why in different contexts the 'solutions' appear to be completely different... I just (a few minutes ago) found another example - M:9/8l this time - also from Northumbrian Minstrelsy - what fun I'm having... Thanks again both... ____________________________________________ [1] I have however occasionally seen examples of tunes which are clearly printed/written as 4/4 (say) being transcribed as 2/2, or vice versa. I dunno why... Edited February 2 by Roger Hare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wild Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 I do not have a hard copy of the book. I found it with a google search at this website: https://ia902209.us.archive.org/32/items/ACollectionOfTheBalladsMelodiesAndSmall-pipeTunesOfNorthumbria/NorthumbrianBallads.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hare Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 7 hours ago, John Wild said: I do not have a hard copy of the book etc... Ah! Thank you for that - that will save me a deal of messing about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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