Jeffries 30-key CG layout?

[xgx]

I have 2 Anglos with Jeffries layout, from two different makers, the right side, upper row, 1st button, sounds C#5 on the push yet I've checked 3 layout diagrams and they show that it as D#5.

 

Which is correct please?

Edited August 16, 2023 by xgx
correction

[Stephen Chambers]

"Normal" Jeffries fingering would be to have D# on the press on the 1st button, but these days it's common to have C# on both press and draw there.

[xgx]

1 hour ago, Stephen Chambers said:

"Normal" Jeffries fingering would be to have D# on the press on the 1st button, but these days it's common to have C# on both press and draw there.

Yes, the C#5 is available on push and draw on the first two button but it's A/F with the diagram ...

 

question remains, which is correct?

[Clive Thorne]

YOu could argue that as it is different to "Normal", then it isn't Jeffries layout at all! Not that it matters on iota.

[xgx]

47 minutes ago, Clive Thorne said:

YOu could argue that as it is different to "Normal", then it isn't Jeffries layout at all!  

The question was Which is correct ... aka 'normal'

 

Not that it matters on iota.

Oh! But it does matter!

...it matters if I get used to one and find that a subsequent purchase is different, not to mention the potential cost of correcting it!

 

and the question remains unanswered, Which is correct ?

[Clive Thorne]

16 minutes ago, xgx said:

...it matters if I get used to one and find that a subsequent purchase is different, not to mention the potential cost of correcting it!

 

and the question remains unanswered, Which is correct ?

 

I think that Stephen has already answered this. C#/D# is "Normal", but D#/D# is a common variation.

It's one of the "joys" of anglo concertina is the variations in the layouts that exist - sometimes even with the core 20 keys.

 

If you have two Jeffries layout which are different then I can understand you wanting make them the same, but it seems that the choice of which is up to you. My 1890 Jeffries has the C#/D# on the first button and D#/C# on the second.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Clive Thorne

[xgx]

5 minutes ago, Clive Thorne said:

(...)

My 1890 Jeffries has the C#/D# on the first button and D#/C# on the second.

Seems the question has been asked before, the definitive answer is yes and no.

 

 

[Leah Velleman]

My understanding is that Actual Vintage Jeffries Concertinas, Made By The Jeffries Brothers were consistently built with D# on that button. (Some may have been retuned since, though.)

 

Modern concertinas in the Jeffries layout are sometimes built with D#, and sometimes with an extra C#. And in fact, on instruments that aren't mass-produced, it's very common to offer both options. Even Kensington Concertinas, whose whole deal is "I don't do customizations," says on his website that he's open to that one. 

 

I think it's up to you and your goals. If you want to be able to pick up and play an Actual Vintage Jeffries Concertina, Made By The Jeffries Brothers, then don't get too attached to that extra C#, because they won't have it unless someone altered them. If you're more interested in having a high-end handmade modern instrument someday, then go for it. 

[xgx]

Thanks Leah

I already have a high end, hand made, modern instrument plus a quality Hybrid from a good maker 😊

 

I'm also ploughing parallel furrows with EC, Maccann and Hayden duets ... all good fun if you don't weaken

 

Afterthought...

I'll give the vintage Jeffries a try  ... subject to re-incarnation 💀

Edited August 16, 2023 by xgx
chuckle

[Stephen Chambers]

On 8/16/2023 at 5:11 PM, xgx said:

Seems the question has been asked before, the definitive answer is yes and no.

 

That's what I was getting at in my original reply to you.

 

Jeffries were always accommodating to customers when it came to variations in fingering layout, so  not all Jeffries' were completely "standard" when they left the workshop, never mind after rearranging later to suit different players - whilst swapping around the D# and C# reeds is usually very easy because the reed-frames are usually the same size.

 

Meanwhile there's a new layout becoming popular, named after Mary MacNamara, that has three C#5s on the first 2 buttons of the RH Jeffries-system accidental row - so that it doesn't matter if you're used to Jeffries fingering, Lachenal/Wheatstone fingering, or to having C# in both directions on the first button...

Edited August 21, 2023 by Stephen Chambers

[xgx]

Thanks Stephen

Is there any overarching reason why the first accidental button isn't push-me-pull you C#5?

[Stephen Chambers]

1 hour ago, xgx said:

Is there any overarching reason why the first accidental button isn't push-me-pull you C#5?

 

No, in fact there are plenty of Irish traditional music players who do that, and it's very easily reversed.

[Clive Thorne]

3 hours ago, Stephen Chambers said:

 

That's what I was getting at in my original reply to you.

 

Jeffries were always accommodating to customers when it came to variations in fingering layout, so  not all Jeffries were completely "standard" when they left the workshop, never mind after rearranging later to suit different players - whilst swapping around the D# and C# reeds is usually very easy because the reed-frames are usually the same size.

 

Meanwhile there's a new layout becoming popular, named after Mary McNamara, that has three C#5s on the first 2 buttons of the RH Jeffries-system accidental row - so that it doesn't matter if you're used to Jeffries fingering, Lachenal/Wheatstone fingering, or to having C# in both directions on the first button...

But only have the Eb in one direction!

[Stephen Chambers]

6 hours ago, Clive Thorne said:

But only have the Eb in one direction!

 

That's alright, Irish players don't find much use for Eb/D#, whilst C# is vital...

[Clive Thorne]

16 hours ago, Stephen Chambers said:

 

That's alright, Irish players don't find much use for Eb/D#, whilst C# is vital...

Thanks Stephen. Is the Mcmanamara thing, having the same note on the same direction on adjacent buttons a fingering / rapid repeat thing then?

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Clive Thorne

[malcolm clapp]

Only about 4 inches off topic, but can anyone please explain the variation of the G row button furthest to the right of the right hand side of a C/G layout? Many Jeffries anglos have a push F, while other makers seem to have the more logical push  B.

Is this an ITM thing too? Seems unlikely.

To be fair, I rarely, if ever, need to play a B note up that high, and neither do most players I know; but I've often been asked about this and can offer no answer except to joke about upsetting the neighbours' dogs at 100 yards distance.

I guess it's easier to make an F reed than a B reed of such a high pitch, so maybe the reason is as simple as that; a slight cost saving on making a reed that no one plays...or is that too cynical a view???

 

[Clive Thorne]

4 hours ago, malcolm clapp said:

Only about 4 inches off topic, but can anyone please explain the variation of the G row button furthest to the right of the right hand side of a C/G layout? Many Jeffries anglos have a push F, while other makers seem to have the more logical push  B.

Is this an ITM thing too? Seems unlikely.

To be fair, I rarely, if ever, need to play a B note up that high, and neither do most players I know; but I've often been asked about this and can offer no answer except to joke about upsetting the neighbours' dogs at 100 yards distance.

I guess it's easier to make an F reed than a B reed of such a high pitch, so maybe the reason is as simple as that; a slight cost saving on making a reed that no one plays...or is that too cynical a view???

 

Mine (36 key) has a push Bb on that button, so the top G is my highest note. I have seen other jeffries layouts with this as well.