Buzzing reed on Carroll anglo

[Sarah Cardin]

I just got a Carroll 30-button Anglo from its previous owner and it's a lovely thing. Except for the pull D on button #22 (C row, right hand), that is. The reed has a metallic buzz/sizzle as the button is released. This sound has a bit of an echo to it.I've been trying to get rid of that buzz/sizzle for a couple of days without luck, so I'm making this appeal to the Concertina.Net group mind.

 

Here's what I've tried so far, based on stuff I learned from Carroll videos and discussions here on Concertina.Net:

• Just in case a sticky button had something to do with it, I checked out the felt bushings on the button and buttonhole to make sure that the button was moving freely. This included opening up the action box to look directly at the assemblies inside.
• I pulled the reed assembly and plinked the reed. It sounded as though the reed was moving freely, but I put it on a makeshift light table to be sure. No apparent contact between reed and shoe.
• Using very thin metal foil, I cleaned the reed off to make sure there was no gunk or debris on it. Also, I put the reed back onto the light table to make sure there was still clearance on all sides. Under a magnifier, it looked like there might be junk adhering to the inside of the shoe near the reed screws, so I used the foil to carefully clear that stuff out.
• I checked the reed slot for anything on the sides or bottom that might be pressuring the reed shoe. Nothing.

 

During the whole of the above, I disassembled and reassembled the right side of the concertina several times. Nothing I did made much difference with the problem.

 

At this point, I swapped the D reed assembly from button #15 on the left side G row with the 'problem' D reed assembly. The 'problem' assembly worked just fine after moving to the #15 push slot. No nasty noises at all. But as you've undoubtedly guessed, the former #15 reed assembly buzzed, sizzled, and echoed when moved into the #22 pull slot.

 

So it appears to me that the problem is only indirectly the reed. I'm guessing that something else (a spring, a lever arm?) is what's actually making the buzz/sizzle. Am I on the right track?

 

How can I identify the actual culprit here? How can I fix the problem?

 

I'm out of ideas. Maybe y'all have some for me?

 

[alex_holden]

It sounds like the reed slot in the pan is compressing the frame enough to cause interference because the wood has expanded due to humidity changes. Try pushing the frame in only far enough that it feels like it is being gripped lightly, not all the way to the end of the slot.

[Wally Carroll]

Try what Alex has suggested first. If this makes the problem go away it could be as Alex has suggested or alternatively that the wood near the tip of the reed tongue has changed and is now making contact with the reed. 
 

Is it possible that you could post a sound file?

 

I am traveling at the moment with my family so may only be able to check in once a day but I’ll be back in the shop next week if we haven’t come up with a solution by then. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Wally Carroll

[Sarah Cardin]

 

Thanks Alex for your advice. After I swapped the two reeds back to their original positions -- each one fit best in the slot where it started -- I backed the reed in the #22 pull slot off a bit from the end of the slot. It reduced the buzz/sizzle a bit, but did nothing much to fix the echo/hollowness of the sound the reed produced. No other reed on the instrument is making this kind of sound. Just whichever reed is occupying the #22 pull position. The concertina is more playable now, but the weird sound the reed is making still grates on me.

 

I attached a sound file to this reply. Hopefully it caught the hollow sound I'm talking about.

 

I really appreciate how people are going out of their way to help me with this.

[Wally Carroll]

Sarah, I’m not sure I’m hearing what you are hearing. Some notes are located under the palms of the hand which causes them to sound a bit muffled to the person playing the instrument but to others who are listening to the instrument from a little distance, everything smooths out. The D note on 22 is located under the palms. If you play this note the way you normally do then play it again while lifting your palms off of the instrument, does it now sound more normal?  It might also be helpful to have a recording of you first playing the #15 D then playing #22 so we have a comparison.  

[d.elliott]

I am not picking up a fault from the sound file, it might just be the harmonics of the instrument

[Sarah Cardin]

I'm back with my final report. The short of it is that the problem is solved to the degree that playing the D note on #22 isn't making me nuts any more. I can still hear the problem if I listen hard for it, but no one else will notice. And, as Dave Elliott pointed out, it could just be due to the harmonics of this particular concertina. I'm not surprised that nobody noticed anything with the sound file -- my phone's mike did a bad job of catching the buzz/sizzle.

 

In getting to this point, I did do what Wally Carroll suggested and played the note with my palms off the concertina. It didn't change the sound of the 'problem' reed at all. Both the buzz/sizzle and the hollowness were still there no matter where my hands were or how the instrument was oriented.

 

I also messed around more with the position of the reed in the slot as suggested by Alex Holden. There turned out to be a sweet spot in terms of how far to back the reed off from the end of the slot. When I found it, the bulk of the bad sound I was hearing disappeared. And since I still suspected that there was a sympathetic vibration going on -- part of the harmonics -- I stuck a bit of museum putty on the lever arm just to see what happened. It wasn't a total solution, but it did make the note sound a bit better. My concertina definitely has its own little mystery spot ...

 

So I'm happily playing away on this lovely instrument, finally. I'm crossing my fingers that the change in climate from its previous home and Portland's current hot, dry spell doesn't cause any more havoc with the concertina than it already has. Although dealing with this problems (and several far less intractable reed problems) has resulted in my no longer being afraid to open up a concertina, and I feel confident that I can diagnose and fix the common ailments. Thanks to Dave Elliott for his great instructions on making a new button bushing, and to Wally Carroll for all those great videos.

 

Again, I really appreciate all the help I got here. Concertina.net is the best.

[Wally Carroll]

Sarah, I will add that in a few rare cases I have found a sympathetic vibration occur in the valve that sits next to the problem reed in the same chamber. Because you described the sound a bit different I didn’t think this was the case but now I wonder. The sound you would hear if this is the problem is a faint lower octave of the same note. Just thought I would throw that out there.  You could try swapping the valve out for a new one if you have a spare. Also, I’ve had many people tell me a note is not loose when they check, but after convincing them to shim the note anyway as outlined in the loose note video, their problems are corrected. If you haven’t already done so, I would suggest that you do this. 

[alex_holden]

I'm not saying it's the problem in this case, but I have in the past had reeds that made a faint metallic high-pitched ringing sound, that turned out to be caused by fine steel dust (left over from tuning) stuck to the edges of the reed tongue that wouldn't easily clean off. Under the microscope it looked like the reed was growing fur. I now demagnetise every reed after tuning and blow it off with compressed air and don't tend to have that problem any more.

 

I have also rarely had a problem where the coil end of an action spring was barely touching an adjacent lever and intermittently buzzing (that took a while to track down).

[Lars]

On 7/21/2023 at 12:09 AM, alex_holden said:

I'm not saying it's the problem in this case, but I have in the past had reeds that made a faint metallic high-pitched ringing sound, that turned out to be caused by fine steel dust (left over from tuning) stuck to the edges of the reed tongue that wouldn't easily clean off. Under the microscope it looked like the reed was growing fur. I now demagnetise every reed after tuning and blow it off with compressed air and don't tend to have that problem any more.

 

I have also rarely had a problem where the coil end of an action spring was barely touching an adjacent lever and intermittently buzzing (that took a while to track down).

 

I think you're onto something, I tune and repair a lot of harmoniums and I can hear what she's talking about. Usually it's a bit of metal fuzz on the reed tongue and rarely it's the contact where the tongue is riveted (that's how they do it with these) to the frame. I call it a 'sizzle'.