Sound Of Concertina

[Ritchie_Kay]

I bought an anglo concertina on a whim last summer. Since I wasn't sure whether I would take to it I stuck to one of the more expensive Stagis. As it happens I am really enjoying playing it and will no doubt upgrade at some point but in the meantime I have the following question/request for reassurance:

I have the madForTrad CD-ROM tutorial, I also have Mick Bramich's book + CD plus music CDs from Noel Hill and Mary McNamara. Whilst I can play along to Niall Vallely's advanced reels and sound not dissimilar to him (obviously worse but it seems a reachable goal), when I listen to all the other CDs they sound like I want my playing to sound like but they don't seem to correspond very well to the sounds that come out of my concertina. I think rhythym is part of the answer to this but not the whole answer and I don't think it lies in the ornamentation.

 

I find it frustrating because I start to doubt whether my concertina playing will ever sound authentic. I'm guessing that if a Noel Hill played with my instrument then he would still sound authentic? Or can you never sound good on a Stagi?

Has any other learner been through this and found an answer or does it just come with time? Unfortunately I'm not easily able to get to try other concertinas or hear anybody else play live. I wouldn't mind if I was rubbish but felt like I was getting there but I feel that my technique is progressing - I can play reasonably fast - but it seems that the Irish feel isn't there. Any tips???

[Ken_Coles]

Getting an "Irish feel" in my playing has taken years, though admittedly I am a slower student than some other folks here. I started on a very slow Stagi and Noel once took it and played it like lightning, and very much in style also. Articulation is one big part of this. Ornaments are quite a study as well. There are many elements and I can't articulate them all, but rhythm is another big part of it. For me, progress in music never happens overnight, or all at once.

 

If, OTOH, you are talking about tone, it can depend on the instrument you are playing. See the interesting thread on Reed types. Our friends here have lots of ideas on this to share with you. Also, if you live near any of us, seeing others play in person is valuable in understanding all this and deciding what you personally like.

[Ritchie_Kay]

Thanks - that means I can forget trying to blame the instrument. I don't have the impression that my Stagi is too slow, I can play along with CDs for a few bars and it is my fingers that eventually go wrong not the instrument So I shall forget about solving the problem by upgrading for the time being and keep plugging away at the technique. I have bought a mini-disc recorder and a proper mike so I can better analyse the sounds that I make - maybe that will help. Right now when I play I think it sounds OK but when I play it back it sounds rubbish

Unfortunately, I am based in Darmstadt, Germany which is not really a hotbed of Concertina playing as far as I can work out - which is a shame, it would be fun and motivational to play with other people and very useful to intercat with someone who plays well..

[nils]

Hi Ritchie,

 

there are some good players in Germany, try the Concertinatreffen in Bielefeld in may.

If You want to listen to a good concertina you could contact Claus Kessler via the irishtrad group on yahoo.de. He works with Juergen Suttner in Siegen and I like his playing very much.

 

Nils

[Henk van Aalten]

Thanks - that means I can forget trying to blame the instrument. I don't have the impression that my Stagi is too slow, I can play along with CDs for a few bars and it is my fingers that eventually go wrong not the instrument

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Ritchie

I can fully confirm that you must not blame the instrument. I can compare the Stagi with the so called "hybrids" like the Marcus and the Geuns-Wakker. My conclusion is that there is no difference in playing speed (for my slow fingers). I suggest to play slower, which gives you more room for expressions. Mary MaNamara is a very good example for a not too fast playing style with a lot of expression. An Paistin Fion is a great example for her style.

Try to catch the expression and feeling by playing slow. The speed will come with time. Focussing on speed can be frustrating.

 

 

Unfortunately, I am based in Darmstadt, Germany which is not really a hotbed of Concertina playing as far as I can work out - which is a shame, it would be fun and motivational to play with other people and very useful to intercat with someone who plays well..

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At about 15 kilometers distance of Darmstadt lives Joachim Delp (in Reinheim). He is a C.Net member. Try to contact him; he is a great guy and it is fun to exchange your experiences with him. About a month ago I was a weekend his guest and it was big fun.

[Ritchie_Kay]

At about 15 kilometers distance of Darmstadt lives Joachim Delp (in Reinheim). He is a C.Net member. Try to contact him; he is a great guy and it is fun to exchange your experiences with him. About a month ago I was a weekend his guest and it was big fun.

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Thanks that's an interesting tip. I'll see if I can pluck up the courage. Sometimes I think I'd benefit from playing with others. At other times I think I'd be too embarrassed until I can play better.... Bielefeld sounds interesting too. I should swallow my inhibitions....

BTW Henk - what do you class as slow? It seems people knock of an AABB jig/reel in approx 40 secs. I can do that too (for simpler tunes) but it doesn't sound too good. But I had thought, if I can play along to a CD then I should be able to pick up the feeling but I'm not sure that that theory is working. If I slow down too much I think I will also lose something.

Your recorded tunes link page looks interesting (haven't had a chance to listen yet) but the comparison should be informative, I hope.

[Ritchie_Kay]

Henk, also my question is not really can you play fast enough with a Stagi but more can you make it sound authentic. Of course better instruments must sound better but when I play I don't make the noise that I associate with Concertinas. Although I am resigned to the fact that that is my fault!

Edited January 19, 2005 by Ritchie_Kay

[bill_mchale]

Henk, also my question is not really can you play fast enough with a Stagi but more can you make it sound authentic. Of course better instruments must sound better but when I play I don't make the noise that I associate with Concertinas. Although I am resigned to the fact that that is my fault!

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Ritchie, if it is truely a question of sound, and not rhythm or ornaments, then it truely is the Stagi. They are made very different from traditional concertinas and also very different from the hybrids; they are put together like very small accordions using reed blocks. This will change the tone somewhat. they are also often slightly out of tune.

 

--

Bill

[Ritchie_Kay]

Well I just get frustrated because I play a tune - it sounds OK too me (because the tune is in my head anyway) but when I record it and play it back it just doesn't sound similar enough to proper players. Then I wonder whether it is technique (rhythym prinicipally) or whether the Stagi can't be played to sound Irish. I guess the replies tell me to focus on the rhythym and it will come in the end.

Edited January 20, 2005 by Ritchie_Kay

[Henk van Aalten]

BTW Henk - what do you class as slow? It seems people knock of an AABB jig/reel in approx 40 secs. I can do that too (for simpler tunes) but it doesn't sound too good. But I had thought, if I can play along to a CD then I should be able to pick up the feeling but I'm not sure that that theory is working. If I slow down too much I think I will also lose something.

Your recorded tunes link page looks interesting (haven't had a chance to listen yet) but the comparison should be informative, I hope.

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Ritchie

You should really listen to the various tunes there. A great example of a (very slow) played jig is Sport as played by Michael Eskin. I recently heard the same tune at a sessiun at high speed. This completely ruined the tune (IMO).

[Ritchie_Kay]

Henk,

Those recordings are really useful. It is good to hear people who are good but not too good - it gives a more realistic target to aim at. I was interested to hear you playing Sliabh Russel - that is one of the ones on the madForTrad tutorial, although I think the ornamentation presented there messes up the tune, I prefer your version.

I just think that I rush and don't pay each note enough attention. The tone of my concertina sounds quite similar to yours.

Ritchie

Edited January 20, 2005 by Ritchie_Kay

[Alan Miller]

Ritchie: I have experienced many of the same questions that you pose, and I offer my thoughts with the understanding that they are individual to me and may not be of general application. I started on a Stagi in October 2003. I loved it, and pracitced a lot but never could achieve great speed or good tone.

 

In June 2004 I obtained an Edgley. The differences between it and the Stagi are many. First, the Edgley is much faster. (When I was waiting for the Edgley I tried out a Suttner that someone brought to a beginner session. It was my first experience at what the experience should be with good bellows and responsive reeds. That is the same experience I have had with the Edgley. The Suttner owner tried my Stagi and said that he was fighting it. That is the experience that I had. I pick up the Stagi once in a while, and am now a bit faster on it, but it does not compare in any way to the Edgley.

 

The tone on the Edgley is more balanced. The buttons are more playable. The reeds are more responsive. The bellows are tighter. Here are some of the differences. I used to try to make a G chord on the Stagi by bridging the G & B with my little finger. It was awkward. It is second nature on the Edgley. I used to hate runs with a lot of changes in bellows direction, and I used to try to use the buttons that produced notes in the same direction. That is almost irrelevant now except for triplets. I suspect that my experience on the Edgley is the same that you would find for other instruments such as from the Button Box. The point is, there is a major difference between them and the Stagi. In fact, Mary MacNamara said that playing a Stagi can create bad habits that are hard to break. So I suggest that you take any opportunity you have to try other boxes.

 

I also had and have a hard time playing to session tempo. I found that going too fast actually caused me to lose the rhythm. I try hard to stay in rhythm and let the tempo increase naturally as my familiarity with the tune grows. Sometimes I use a metronome, other times I use my foot to set a beat. I also use CD's, including the CD from Edgley's tutor. Edgley's is at a relaxed tempo that is pretty easy to play to for most tunes, though it does take practice. My favorite CD is the the two CD set of the tunes from the first volume of the Comhaltas book (Foinn Seisiun 1). I use a program to slow the tempo down without lowering the pitch. (I use "Transcribe" but I believe that there are several acceptable programs.) I find that I can achieve full tempo on some of the more common jigs and hornpipes but not on the reels. Henk mentioned a tempo of 10 seconds per 8 measures. I figure that is about 96 which is a bit slow for a reel, but it is about as fast as I can go and still maintain rhythm. On the other hand, I find that 120 bpm is doable for jigs such as Saddle the Pony. Playing along sometimes makes speed a bit easier for me. But in the end, speed can be an enemy, and I try to discipline myself to focus on melody and rhythm, and figure that tempo will eventually follow. In the meantime, most tunes can sound very good at a slower tempo if the rhythm is maintained.

 

I use my minidisc a lot, and like you, find that sometimes the tune sounds terrible to my ear. So I keep working and recording the same tune till it sounds better. It can take a long time, but it does improve.

 

I hope that the above experience helps. Let us know of your progress. Alan

Edited January 22, 2005 by Alan Miller

[Ritchie_Kay]

Thanks Alan, that is very helpful and interesting to here that you have made a similar experience. I am going to investigate various possibilities to upgrade my machine. It can't hurt and I knew when I bought the Stagi that if I got along with the concertina as an instrument that I would want to upgrade at some point.

In the meantime I am going to try and be a bit more disciplined. Stick to small number of tunes and learn to emphasise the rhythym and prioritise that over speed. I have tried playing tunes to a metronone or tapping my foot but I can't do it. I think that proves that I am not feeling the rhythym when I am playing but just playing a succession of notes. I will have to keep working at it.

Ritchie

[Ritchie_Kay]

Back to the rhythm theme. I find that when a play a reel at a reasonable pace it actually sounds quite good. I need to work on the ornamentation and chording but it will get there.

However, with jigs it is a different matter. If it is a nice tune - say the tenpenny bit - then it sounds OK but not quite right. But if it's one of those where the second two notes of a group of three are the same as the first note of the next set (which seems quite common) then it doesn't sound right at all. The problem in both cases is not quite getting the rhythm right. If I listen to a recording I don't here the characteristic blocks of three that you do when listening to other people and when I am playing I never really know which notes go together in a block unless I think very hard or look at the moment.

I am guessing that most people have problems with this. It seems to me that jigs are deceptively difficult, so I was wondering if anyone has any hints how to get this right?

Edited February 22, 2005 by Ritchie_Kay

[Peter Brook]

Hi Richie,

 

I'm a relative newbie to concertina (coming up to 2 years) but one thing that has helped me is taking a tune and "deconstructing" it. It may be of use to you.

 

What I mean by that is:

 

1) I learn a tune and become familiar with it

2) Then i'll try to play every note staccato (ie. the shorter the better) but otherwise play at the same speed (i'll do this for perhaps an hour and repeat it for shorter periods in following practices)

3) Then i'll do the opposite and try to slur every note, and not clip anything. Just play as smoothly as humanly possible but stick to the same speed. (I always press twice for repeated notes using the same key/button) - again you need to put time in to this perhaps 30 minutes initially followed by regular practices.

4) Once i can do all that I accent different notes in phrases (this is hard to explain!). If you take "Cock of the North" in the Mick Bramich book, I'll try to imagine someone stepping to the tune so if you take the bar labelled 1 i'll firstly accent notes 1 & 4. Once I'm happy with that i'll change and accent notes 2 & 5 etc. A simpler tune to start this varible accenting with might be "Off to California" over the page (it has a natural lilt which you will initially have to fight to follow my advice).

 

Doing all this may seem a bit wierd at first but I have found that it uncovers so much more in the tune. I actually start to realise which notes should be clipped and which should be held on a bit longer, which ornamentations I have time for and sound musically "correct". This clipping and lengthening means that the natural rythm of the tune comes through.

 

A side benefit of doing all this is that I now know the notes so well in a particular tune that I can concentrate on producing music, and putting more expression into my playing.

 

It works for me.

[Ritchie_Kay]

That is an interesting tip. However, it raises some more questions for me.

 

1) Can you play staccato when you play three notes which require a push-pull-push (or vice-versa) on the same key? Do you press the key three times despite the change of bellows direction?

 

2) In terms of trying to get a jig rhythm (slightly lengthened first note, slightly shortened second note) I find that it is just about possible when the group of three notes are played on different keys. But if I play something like the Kesh jig as written in Mick Bramich's book then it involves a lot of push pull on the same key. If I try and play with a jig rhythm then it sounds very forced and when I speed up I go back to all notes the same length anyway - so it never sounds very good. It is that type of jig and ones where the second two notes of the first group and the first of the next are the same that sound particularly bad when I play and I am at a loss to how to improve.

 

Ritchie

[Rhomylly]

Alan, I had the exact same experience between my Stagi and my Edgley, which I got in July 2004. I pulled out the Stagi last week for the first time since getting the Edgley and thought it sounded -- and felt -- awful!

[Ritchie_Kay]

Alan, I had the exact same experience between my Stagi and my Edgley, which I got in July 2004. I pulled out the Stagi last week for the first time since getting the Edgley and thought it sounded -- and felt -- awful!

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Thanks to Alan, I have now ordered an Edgely!!