Recording Tunes

[Jim Stetson]

I'm going to take an intensive music class (NHICS) in August and it has been suggested to bring an audio recorder as a tool to help learn new tunes. I read Ken Coles' essay about mini-disk recorders but it is over four years old so I'm sure there are new and better methods by now. The cassette tape era is a fond memory around this house as we have switched to CD's and MP3 files for listening to recorded music. Does anyone have any experience using a solid state or hard disk recorder for recording live music and playing it back as a loop? I have used my iRiver MP3 player to make MP3 files from old LP's and it works fine but it would be a distraction to use it for live music because the buttons are very small and the display is hard to read. I'm looking for something that's tried and true but won't be obsolete by August. I'd also appreciate any advice on what kind of microphone to use.

TIA,

Jim Stetson

[Jim Besser]

The minidisc is still a good option, although it's getting harder to find ones with mic inputs and line out jacks. But the quality is very good, they're easy to use, and it's easy to burn CDs from your recordings to practice with (I recorded all the Noel Hill sessions and still sometimes refer back to the CDs.)

 

That said, I also use a Sony digital recorder for dictation, and find that produces OK sounding stereo recordings of music. It's tiny, it holds a ton of music, it's easy to use. The recordings are then uploaded to the computer, but I don't think they're as flexible as the minidisc recordings . ANd the microphone quality isn't as good; the result is more of a cacophany. Still, for learning tunes, it's a good option and far superior to tape.

 

My Sony includes software that will slow down the playback while retaining original pitch, like the Amazing Slower Downer, which I use on some minidisc recordings. But it won't go as slow as the Slower Downer, and doesn't have pitch control, which is nice for learning from recordings that are slightly off pitch.

 

But if you can find a good minidisc at a reasonable price, that's the way to go, in my opinion.

[Ken_Coles]

Well, like my recording technology I'm old and outdated myself, but am still using the same minidisk recorder for music classes. I have perhaps 80 or 100 disks on archive. I used to transfer them all to the computer and then CD, but recently I've only done that with the ones I consider most important. When the MD wears out I guess I'll have to revisit this question, but the fi is so hi that I've no motive to do so now (leaving more cash, ha, to spend on instruments).

[Michael Reid]

I have the same Sony digital voice recorder as Jim Besser -- model ICD-ST25. I think it's an excellent solution for learning at workshops, IF you can bring along a Windows laptop. That's what I did for Noel Hill School last summer.

 

It's tiny -- about as small as my cell phone, but lighter, so it fits easily in a shirt pocket. It records 85 minutes in stereo. I think the sound quality is amazingly good. If anyone would like to hear a sample recorded at a pub session, send me an email and I'll send back an MP3 (~4 megabytes ... make sure you email account can handle this large a file).

 

With the included (Windows-only) editing software, it's a snap to transfer files to a laptop and convert them to WAV format. I then use freeware to turn the WAVs into MP3s for longer-term storage, since that cuts the file size by about 90%.

 

The recorder itself has built-in looping and slow-down capability -- down to 50% of original speed. Once the files are on your laptop, you can do the same things in the editing software.

[Jim Stetson]

Thanks for all the feedback Jim, Ken, and Michael. I'm going to look into the MD recorders and the ICD-ST25. I don't want to have to depend on having a laptop, though. I'd like a field recorder that is as "free-standing" as possible. It seems like built-in speakers would be a good thing to have too.

 

I did a little research today on the web and found something that looks like it's really made for the job. Take a look at this thing: http://www.whistleanddrum.com/ProductInfo....roductid=EDI-R1

 

Pros: Solid-state. No moving parts to wear out. No clicking gears and whirring motors to interfere with the sound. Capacity of removable media is up to 2Gb. Built-in metronome, tuner & half-speed control. Built-in stereo microphones. Simple and rugged design (looks like it anyway), with clearly marked buttons for old eyes like mine. Very compact. Made by a reputable firm (Edirol is part of Roland). Great connectivity.

 

Cons: No built-in speaker. Not clear how easy it is to set markers and label tunes for reviewing and searching through recordings--something I understand is a strong point in the MD format.

 

Has anyone seen or used something like this before? I have a few months to shop before I really need this thing but hopefully there will be more like this from the competition and the price will come down a bit--the lowest I saw advertised was $390--but nearly everyone is out of stock.

 

Jim

 

Oh, and Happy New Year!

[bill_mchale]

A bit pricier, but Marantz has, I believe a pretty good reputation. It also has a build in speaker.

 

http://www.marantzpro.com/Products/PMD670.html

 

--

Bill

[nils]

I record with an "Elson" mp3 player. The built-in mic is allright. It has got a line-in jack, but you need an amplified mic to use that. The only one I know of is the "pogo" stereo mic which I couldn`t get in europe for a reasonable price.

I found a good thread discussing this problems on a radio reporter site. They are still prefearing old minidiscs (Sony MZ R30) because of the quality of the preamplifier for the mic input. A new Sony (I don't remember the number) is said to have similar quality and is equiped with additional software for digital copying on the computer. I haven`t tried it yet.

 

Nils

[RoyJanik]

There's a new generation of high-density (HI-MD) minidiscs out there. I have a Sony MZ-NH1, which I used at the NHICS Midwest school last year. 1 gig removable media. I recorded at the 25kbps rate, and still managed to fit all the lessons, both concerts, and a few sessions onto one disc.

 

Best of all, you can now upload your recordings onto your computer and convert them to WAV (and hence to mp3) in faster than realtime. Sony originally had placed some asinine restrictions on this, but they've relented.

 

You can also record in completely uncompressed PCM WAV format if you're so inclined.

 

http://www.minidisco.com/mz-nh1.html

 

For a mic, I used the ubiquitous Sony

ECM-MS907:

 

http://www.minidisco.com/ecm-ms907.html

[Jim Stetson]

Thanks, Bill, for the info about Marantz. At $700, this is beyond my budget for now, though. And thanks Nils and Roy for the MD info. I looked at the reviews for the MZ-NH1 on Amazon and they are highly regarded but apparently don't work with Macs. I don't have a PC so I don't think I can get full benefit out of a Sony. Too bad Sony doesn't use a standard format or at least make their equipment show up on the Mac desktop like the most other devices do. There is always third party software to convert files from one format to another but I think WAV and MP3 should be standard fare for all these gadgets.

 

Jim

[Pete Dickey]

Doesn't the Ipod or one of the numerous equivalents have a microphone input socket. At least some of these are bound to be compatible with the Mac and with mini hard disks up to 40 gigs can certainly hold a heck of a lot of music together with the ability to upload to the computer.

 

Pete

[Jim Stetson]

Doesn't the Ipod or one of the numerous equivalents have a microphone input socket. At least some of these are bound to be compatible with the Mac...

Most MP3 players don't have microphone sockets. Some, like my iRiver mentioned above, have built-in microphones that are suitable for voice recording but they don't work well for music. The iRiver has a line input socket but that only works as a microphone port with the addition of a preamp. My iRiver has the worlds worst user interface. Even the iTalk add-on for giving the iPod voice recorder capability only makes 8kHz 16-bit mono WAV files. That's fine for a voice recorder but music needs 44kHz.

 

Not that it wouldn't be possible to add high-quality recording features to the iPod. Maybe something new will be announced at this week's CES in Las Vegas or at the Macworld Expo in San Francisco next week.

 

For a voice recorder, the Sony ICD-ST25 ($125 street) really does have pretty amazing sound quality but, alas, Sony's proprietary file compression system (ATRAC) is not compatible with Macs. I'm also looking into Olympus' DM-20 ($180 street) voice recorder, which has CD quality recording capability, at least four times as much memory (up to 2GB), and is Mac compatible.

--Jim

[nils]

Hi Jim,

 

I have found some favourable comments about the pogo RipFlash Trio, which records mp3 from an external mic. And its not expensive. Maybe an option for you?

 

Nils

[Sandy Winters]

I use my iRiver mp3 player recorder regularly to record sessions. It's really not that much of a problem. The buttons are indeed small but once you get it into record audio mode it's just a matter of toggling the play/record button on and off. Even if it shuts down automatically due to inactivity when you power it back on it comes back up in the same mode.

 

I'd think the real problem would be length of time available. Unless you have a laptop with you to upload your files you'll run out of space. I think even a 256M only has room for 3 hours of actual live recording time. I think you'll need a lot more than that at the Noel Hill school.

 

I'd go with the minidisc recorder and bring lots of discs.

[Jim Stetson]

I have found some favourable comments about the pogo RipFlash Trio, which records mp3 from an external mic. And its not expensive. Maybe an option for you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, the RipFlash Trio does look interesting. I like the fact that it has a speaker and both mic and line-in inputs--and they throw in an FM tuner. On the Pogo website they have reconditioned ones for only $79! http://www.pogoproducts.com/ripflash_trio.html That looks like a good deal, I think most places that still carry these are asking $135. Only 128 MB of memory, though. Their newer models with greater memory capacity don't seem to have all the features of the Trio.

--Jim

[Jim Stetson]

I use my iRiver mp3 player recorder regularly to record sessions. It's really not that much of a problem. The buttons are indeed small but once you get it into record audio mode it's just a matter of toggling the play/record button on and off. Even if it shuts down automatically due to inactivity when you power it back on it comes back up in the same mode.

You're right, it's not that bad. Simple things like adjusting the volume are totally unintuitive but with use I can learn to live with it. I hadn't tried hard enough with my old iRiver iFP-390. I had the record settings set for maximum recording time and forgot I could crank the bit rate up to 160kbps and the sampling frequency up to 44kHz. The sound is actually very good and it really isn't that hard to use.

I'd think the real problem would be length of time available. Unless you have a  laptop with you to upload your files you'll run out of space. I think even a 256M only has room for 3 hours of actual live recording time. I think you'll need a lot more than that at the Noel Hill school.

Right again. I'm caught by the choice of either having adequate recording time or adequate sound quality. I think I'd need almost 1GB capacity for a day's worth of recording and then I'd still need to save to a hard disk each day.

I'd go with the minidisc recorder and bring lots of discs.

I see Rio has a 5GB hard disk based MP3 player/recorder for $200. The iRiver iFP-779 is a 1GB device for $220. I haven't been able to find out how good Rio's recording capabilities are but iRiver's are certainly adequate. So the technology is there at a price that's competitive with MD's. There are new MP3 players coming out every day it seems so I'll keep my eyes open. If there's no better alternative by June I'll probably go with MD. Thanks for your input.

--Jim