Perry Werner Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Hi folks: I was just informed about this instrument (see the link below) which was just listed on Ebay today (9/15/04). Have we not seen this listing before just a few weeks ago??? The photos and the instrument look awful familiar. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...3748787588&rd=1 Also, the seller has a zero rating which also makes me suspicious. If I am wrong about this, my apologies to the seller and potential bidders nad buyer. As someone (I think Lois Lane) once said on an old episode of the TV version of "Superman", 'Better to be Silly Than Sorry'. I suppose it is possible that maybe the buyer from the previous offering has already decided to sell for some reason. So again, my apologies. If I am incorrect about my suspicions about this, please let us all know. Best, Perry Werner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Have we not seen this listing before just a few weeks ago??? The photos and the instrument look awful familiar. Hi Perry, Yes, it originally sold on 21st July for $4,177.00, and this listing is lifted word for word, error for error, and photo for photo from that original auction. Not only does the "seller" have zero feedback, but also the auction is "User ID kept private" and there is no information as to what form of payment is accepted (Western Union would be my guess !). It looks extremely suspicious, which is why I posted a warning earlier here in the Buy and Sell forum, and made a complaint to eBay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 (edited) Not only does the "seller" have zero feedback, but also the auction is "User ID kept private"... If in any doubt whatsoever, one could contact the original buyer. Considering what I know of him, it is not believable that he would be selling it. Hmm, I guess I should contact him, to be sure that he has also complained to eBay. Edited to add: I have now emailed the original buyer, suggesting that he complain to eBay. One might hope that his being able to prove that the instrument for "sale" is not in the possession of the "seller" would motivate eBay to remove the scam more quickly. Edited September 16, 2004 by JimLucas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 One might hope that his being able to prove that the instrument for "sale" is not in the possession of the "seller" would motivate eBay to remove the scam more quickly. Well they evidently had acted by 10.13 this morning, as I received an email from them saying: I can confirm this member is no longer a registered user. Due to privacy law, I am not at liberty to discuss the details of another members account. And the listing has disappeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Stephenson Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I maybe getting jumpy here but there has appeared an item number 3749240248 a crabb serial number 17488. Ok it may be genuine, but the seller specifies the condition as 'used' which I have only coe across once before, user ID kept private, but with 3 sales, as I said before I may be jumping the gun.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 (edited) I maybe getting jumpy here but there has appeared an item number 3749240248 a crabb serial number 17488. I saw the listing, which is certainly not very informative. I would definitely like to know a lot more about it before I bid, and photographs would be a big help. user ID kept private "User ID kept private" can be used to prevent bidders being contacted about a potential fraud, but can be used quite legitimately too. but with 3 sales Actually no, they have no sales, only purchases, and three negative feedbacks (from the same seller). Overall, I wouldn't feel at all confident to bid on it , but don't see any concrete reason to report it to eBay either. Edited September 18, 2004 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 "User ID kept private" can be used to prevent bidders being contacted about a potential fraud, but can be used quite legitimately too. Stephen, please explain how. I can understand an individual bidder wanting their identity kept secret, but I haven't been able to think of a legitimate reason for the seller to impose secrecy on all bidders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Stephen, please explain how.I can understand an individual bidder wanting their identity kept secret, but I haven't been able to think of a legitimate reason for the seller to impose secrecy on all bidders. Some sellers simply like to use it in order to try to get better prices for their goods, it is not otherwise possible for buyers to be anonymous, and some of us don't like to call attention to what we are bidding on (which is why I often bid only at the very last moment on eBay, by sniping, otherwise everybody would know in advance what items I considered to be rare or collectable). Also, some people try to avoid being seen to bid against their "friends", but can do so with impunity if everyone is anonymous. You should see the shenanigans at some real, live, terrestrial auctions as deals are struck between bidders beforehand and buyers try to be as surreptitious as possible when they are bidding, so that even the poor auctioneer isn't sure if they are or not sometimes. I'm sure that eBay wouldn't allow it if it was thought to be used only to perpetrate fraud, but it is a facility that they do provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 I can understand an individual bidder wanting their identity kept secret, but I haven't been able to think of a legitimate reason for the seller to impose secrecy on all bidders. ...it is not otherwise possible for buyers to be anonymous, and some of us don't like to call attention to what we are bidding on... It's only "not possible" because eBay hasn't made it possible. The computer programming to do so should be no more difficult than what currently allows them to hide all bidders' identities in a particular auction. I'm sure that eBay wouldn't allow it if it was thought to be used only to perpetrate fraud, but it is a facility that they do provide. I'm not nearly so trusting. While I don't believe that eBay would deliberately increase the incidence of fraud, I can well imagine them being reluctant to fight it vigorously, if they felt that such action might cut into their profits. And that latter wouldn't even have to be true. There's no end of evidence that individuals, companies, and even governments -- maybe especially governments -- believe things contrary to evidence or fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 The seller's name being "swifty" would not help with peace of mind... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 (edited) I'm sure that eBay wouldn't allow it if it was thought to be used only to perpetrate fraud, but it is a facility that they do provide. I'm not nearly so trusting. While I don't believe that eBay would deliberately increase the incidence of fraud, I can well imagine them being reluctant to fight it vigorously I certainly feel that eBay should make it easier to make a complaint about a listing, it is very easy to do so on C.net (and I used the facility the other week, when somebody joined to advertise cheap cigarettes), but hard to find on eBay. Their official line on "User ID kept private" auctions is as follows : Private Auction Protects bidders'—and the buyer's—privacy Want to let bidders on your item remain anonymous? When you use Private Auction, bidders' user ID won't be displayed on the item listing or bidding-history screens. When the auction is over, only you, the seller, will know who bought the item. Please don't make your auction private unless you have a specific reason, such as potential embarrassment for bidders and the buyer I was trying to be discrete, and only hint at the practice of "ringing" an auction : Ringing refers to an illegal practice of bidders conspiring not to bid against one another at the public auction in order to secure the item cheaply, after which it is privately reauctioned among the conspirators who then share in the profits denied the seller at the public auction. But simply agreeing not to bid against a friend, or fellow collector/dealer, on an item can be construed as ringing. Hiding the identities of the other bidders can prevent such communication between potential buyers, sellers need protection too sometimes ! Edited to correct typo. Edited September 18, 2004 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 [The eBay] official line on "User ID kept private" auctions is as follows : Private Auction Protects bidders'—and the buyer's—privacy Want to let bidders on your item remain anonymous? When you use Private Auction, bidders' user ID won't be displayed on the item listing or bidding-history screens. When the auction is over, only you, the seller, will know who bought the item. Bunch of crap about protecting the bidders, if only the seller -- and not the bidders themselves -- can decide whether to protect them or not. Please don't make your auction private unless you have a specific reason, such as potential embarrassment for bidders and the buyer Y'mean a specific reason, like trying to run a scam. Oh yes, I'm sure the word "please" will stop the scammers in theri tracks! Not ranting against you, of course, Stephen. I was trying to be discrete, and only hint at the practce of "ringing" an auction : .... I thought of that, but it seems to me the benefits of hiding the ID's are largely spurious. For it to work on eBay when the "ringers" don't know each other requires them to contact persons they don't know and solicit their complicity in an illegal act. Then if only one person fails to participate -- either by reporting the others (or the "ringleader") to eBay or by agreeing to participate but then bidding independently (as in the "prisoners' dilemma" logic problem) -- it could screw up the whole scheme. It's much more secure in all ways if the particpants already know each other, and then hiding the ID's does no good at all, since they can -- and probably will -- contact each other off line with, "Are you in on auction #1234567890?" But simply agreeing not to bid against a friend, or fellow collector/dealer, on an item can be construed as ringing. Hiding the identities of the other bidders can prevent such communication between potential buyers,... C'mon, Stephen, I know you've heard of email. Meanwhile, it could work the other way, too. Person X could see that person Y is bidding on instrument #007. Person X is annoyed, because he's always getting outbid by person Y, so even though he's not interested in #007, he enters a high (but not outrageous) bid, confident that he's merely driving up the price Y will have to pay. In that case, hiding Y's identity would be good for Y, but not for the seller. So once again, giving the seller and only the seller the right to hide buyers' identities seems to me to place the power in the hands of the wrong party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 For it to work on eBay when the "ringers" don't know each other requires them to contact persons they don't know and solicit their complicity in an illegal act. But of course they know each other Jim, you tend to get the same group of people bidding on the same category of item, time after time, and friendships/alliances occur, at least by email if not in the flesh. Y'mean a specific reason, like trying to run a scam.Oh yes, I'm sure the word "please" will stop the scammers in theri tracks! So you believe that all "Private" auctions on eBay are scams ? I can assure you that they are not ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 But of course they know each other Jim, you tend to get the same group of people bidding on the same category of item, time after time,... So, as I said, hiding their identities from the public doesn't hinder them. ...and friendships/alliances occur, at least by email if not in the flesh. You mean like when I've made sure friends were aware of certain instruments I thought they would be interested in? So you believe that all "Private" auctions on eBay are scams ? No. I didn't say that, and I don't believe it. I do believe that there are better ways to achieve the "benefits" claimed for the procedure of allowing the seller to hide the buyer ID's. And that the current procedure does disproprotionately favor scammers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 (edited) So, as I said, hiding their identities from the public doesn't hinder them. It is more a case of hiding their interest in a particular item from oneanother. You mean like when I've made sure friends were aware of certain instruments I thought they would be interested in? No, I was thinking more along the lines of offers like "If you don't bid against me on this, I won't bid against you on something else", or "If you don't bid against me on this rare catalogue, I will make you a copy of it", which may seem perfectly reasonable if you are a buyer, but I'm sure the seller would feel differently. At public auctions I have even been asked for money so that somebody wouldn't bid against me ! I do believe that there are better ways to achieve the "benefits" claimed . . . I don't wish to be put up as an apologist for eBay, the system isn't perfect, but what is ? But I do have more than 30 years experience of buying at auction, I have made a major part of my living out of doing it, and I have simply been trying to explain some of the ins-and-outs of doing so. It can be a dirty business. Bidding in an auction could be compared to playing poker, there is a lot of bluff, and counter-bluff, cards are played close to the chest and yes, there is cheating, on all sides. Feelings can run very high, and I have even seen fights break out between bidders ! My advice would be : If you want to make a "safe" purchase, go to a reputable shop. Edited September 19, 2004 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted September 19, 2004 Share Posted September 19, 2004 As usual, I think discussing eBay has been informative, revealing various perspectives and I suspect interesting to some, but it's unlikely to change the world... or eBay. So to end my part of this particular thread on a light-hearted note: ...eBay, the system isn't perfect, but what is ? The English concertina? (Please note tongue in cheek. I will neither debate nor defend that comment.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 I maybe getting jumpy here but there has appeared an item number 3749240248 a crabb serial number 17488. I saw the listing, which is certainly not very informative. I would definitely like to know a lot more about it before I bid, and photographs would be a big help. I see that somebody paid £1,350 for this one, and I hope they got a bargain. I did place a bid on it myself, but only after the seller sent me photographs and said that they were prepared to let me collect it from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 "User ID kept private" can be used to prevent bidders being contacted about a potential fraud, but can be used quite legitimately too.Stephen, please explain how.I can understand an individual bidder wanting their identity kept secret, but I haven't been able to think of a legitimate reason for the seller to impose secrecy on all bidders. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jim, Here's an interesting explanation of why an experienced seller (feedback of 1,824) kept his concertina auction private : Q: Could you please advise the reason for keeping the bidder's names secret? A: This is because scammers offer "high end" items to underbidders inmmediately after the sale,or even relist it under a very similar user mame and email, when of course the item is sitting happily on my stock shelves. and the true buyers get very worried. In fact, scammers even offer the high bidder the item during the sale,hoping that they will part with their money by direct wire. I think that you will see more and more private auctions, as in reality, there is absolutely no need for bidders to know their competition's identity, just as in a land based auction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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