McCann, Macann, or Maccann?

[sadbrewer]

Continued

 

[Irene S.]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:06 PM, sadbrewer said:

Continued

 

Errmm ... yes you are rather repeating information already on this thread, the addresses from census returns have all been posted up as far as members have managed to track them down (and more from other sources than census) and if you care to read my post before yours you will see that I now have his death certificate - his date of death was actually 12 October 1915, and not 10 October 1915 as the contributor of your information posted. The summary you have posted is information from a family tree posted on  Ancestry, and as with so much family tree information posted there it is not to be relied upon entirely I'm afraid (although looking at it the format looks slightly different, but the provider of the information is quite clearly the same one in view of both the information provided, and the title heading on his family tree page - which made me laugh. ) . A lot of the information that the individual who posted it put up was actually gleaned from this forum discussion as far as I could see when I was looking at it during the week. As an example of divergent information, the  the date of death there is shown as 10 October 1915 (although with no indication of any evidence for using that date), and age at date of death as 57, both in the same entry... both wrong unfortunately as in 1915 Maccann was actually 55. It looks to me as though some information which was already on the family tree was altered later,  since we have date of death shown before date of obituary.

Contributors to this thread and an earlier one have provided a lot more detailed information (it's worth reading in full). The "marriages" to Minnie (who died in the workhouse in 1908) and to Sarah Jane Kennerley (the marriage certificate makes interesting reading) were both bigamous as his wife Eliza was still alive and kicking, and undivorced until she died in 1914. It'll take a while to read through the whole thread, but I think you will find the twists and turns of the research that members have carried out interesting. His life would make an interesting film script I reckon, although somewhat depressing in some areas.
(I have by the way, messaged the Ancestry contributor eaerlier today with updated information about date, place and cause of death as he had obviously not already got that.)

PS Where did you actually find that detail?

Edited February 19, 2023 by Irene S.
Correction of information in the original post

[sadbrewer]

48 minutes ago, Irene S. said:

Errmm ... yes you are rather repeating information already on this thread, the addresses from census returns have all been posted up as far as members have managed to track them down (and more from other sources than census) and if you care to read my post before yours you will see that I now have his death certificate - his date of death was actually 12 October 1915, and not 10 October 1915 as the contributor of your information posted. The summary you have posted is information from a family tree posted on  Ancestry, and as with so much family tree information posted there it is not to be relied upon entirely I'm afraid (although looking at it the format looks slightly different, but the provider of the information is quite clearly the same one in view of both the information provided, and the title heading on his family tree page - which made me laugh. ) . A lot of the information that the individual who posted it put up was actually gleaned from this forum discussion as far as I could see when I was looking at it during the week. As an example of divergent information, the  the date of death there is shown as 10 October 1915 (although with no indication of any evidence for using that date), and age at date of death as 57, both in the same entry... both wrong unfortunately as in 1915 Maccann was actually 55. It looks to me as though some information which was already on the family tree was altered later,  since we have date of death shown before date of obituary.

Contributors to this thread and an earlier one have provided a lot more detailed information (it's worth reading in full). The "marriages" to Minnie (who died in the workhouse in 1908) and to Sarah Jane Kennerley (the marriage certificate makes interesting reading) were both bigamous as his wife Eliza was still alive and kicking, and undivorced after Maccann died in October 1915. It'll take a while to read through the whole thread, but I think you will find the twists and turns of the research that members have carried out interesting. His life would make an interesting film script I reckon, although somewhat depressing in some areas.
(I have by the way, messaged the Ancestry contributor eaerlier today with updated information about date, place and cause of death as he had obviously not already got that.)

PS Where did you actually find that detail?

 

No sorry I didn't see your previous post Irene...I'd started on this this morning before you posted , and previously there seemed to be a bit of uncertainty as to the 1915 death. I did find the 1911 census return and a 1918 workhouse entry for Sarah where it stated her husband had been John (musician) but that Nok was now her sister...if that was previously posted...apologies I missed it.  The idea was to at least narrow the death down into that 1911-1918 period.   If it's of interest it gives Sarah's Dob as May 27th 1872.

 

Below is the link

https://gw.geneanet.org/kimd10?lang=en&iz=0&p=john+hill&n=maccann

Edited February 17, 2023 by sadbrewer

[Irene S.]

2 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

 

No sorry I didn't see your previous post Irene...I'd started on this this morning before you posted , and previously there seemed to be a bit of uncertainty as to the 1915 death. I did find the 1911 census return and a 1918 workhouse entry for Sarah where it stated her husband had been John (musician) but that Nok was now her sister...if that was previously posted...apologies I missed it.  The idea was to at least narrow the death down into that 1911-1918 period.   If it's of interest it gives Sarah's Dob as May 27th 1872.

 

Below is the link

https://gw.geneanet.org/kimd10?lang=en&iz=0&p=john+hill&n=maccann

A bit strange as your first post actually quoted my own! LOL Thanks for the link. On checking it I see that it is a website for people to deposit their family trees, which explains why the details are identical to those on Ancestry - same individual has obviously posted. As before, it is unfortunate that people often get their details wrong - there are several people on Ancestry for instance who have showed his death as occurring in West Ham in 1917. Certainly a John Maccann, but a completely different one. As I said , that is the information that a gentleman living in Australia (I'd need to go back to Ancestry and check that it wasn't New Zealand! )had posted up on Ancestry some while ago.

I had already posted up the details of the workhouse entry for Sarah's two week stay in the surgery yesterday, but have just noticed that you have posted details for an entry in workhouse records for 1918 - I was about to search for more detail about Sarah, but as far as I can see that is new information to the thread. At first I thought you had got details of a strange individual by the name of Nok (and went off piste thinking about Nog in Star Trek !) - then realised that it was probably short for Next Of Kin (hadn't come across that designation before) (so have edited my previous post to acknowledge what appears to be a find (without having gone through the whole of the thread again ... 🤣 ... it's getting late at night and I need to retreat to bed ... LOL)

The obituary for the death which was tracked down by Crane Driver about 8 years ago had already established the year and month of death as October 1915. There wasn't really uncertainty about that as the details in the report made it quite clear that  the individual being discussed was John Hill Maccann the concertinist. What was missing was the  death certificate which had not been traceable, which pins down the exact date, place and cause of death which were missing. Trying to find it on Ancestry or Find My Past proved somewhat problematic, but using information from Free BMD and the approximate date of death which had been established I was able to order the certificate. This had already been attempted through a different source several years ago.

Have a read of the full thread! You can thrill to speculation that he might have been abducted by aliens, or went down with the Titanic, that he might have been a roller skating specialist (not proved, but the jury mostly thinks not), read about an apparently shortlived duo with his sister as a vocalist, about Minnie attempting legal action against ladies making comments about her (would love to know what those were), about Minnie dying in the workhouse, and JHM's "marrying" Sarah very shortly afterwards and falsifying entries on the wedding certificate. It's all there ... (Without trawling back through the thread I think you will find that Sarah's date of birth had also been established.) 🙂

Edited February 17, 2023 by Irene S.

[Irene S.]

Following on from sadbrewer's comments about the Workhouse Records, I have continued the search which I had started earlier, and found further records via Find My Past which had not been particularly obvious. Two of them probably clear up the weirdness of the age at date of death on the death certificate. Quite clearly both John and Sarah had arrived at a state of poor health and financial constrictions .

The Liverpool Workhouse records show an admission Dec 8th 1910 of a Sarah Maccann ,discharged from the workhouse on 10 December. She was admitted from 182 Kiln Lane. Whilst it is not clear whether this is Sarah, John'e "wife" the age is about right, being 38 years old on date of admission. So there is a question mark on whether or not this is Sarah Jane (see below, however).

However, on 6 September 1913, John McCann, shown as 68 years old and described as "old and infirm" was admitted to Liverpool Board of Guardians Workhouse. alongside his wife ,Sarah McCann, 42 years old (which would be the right age) described as Temporarily disabled. Sarah is shown as having previously received Parochial relief (which might well suggest that the 1910 entry is indeed for her), whereas John is shown as not having been in that position. The addresses that they were admitted from were different. John was shown as Long House, Daulby Street, whereas Sarah's is shown as 21 Bridport Street. Both were discharged on 8 September 1913. As you might expect, given the way that workhouses at the time operated they were admitted to and discharged from different wards from each other ... but are specifically shown as husband and wife in the records.
There might be various reasons for the odd discrepancy in John's given age - might he have provided that to the governor of the workhouse under whose auspices they were both admitted- or did the governor just record the wrong age, which was then carried through onto the 1915 records?

Interestingly John's description is given as "street singer", so no longer working the halls but presumably down to begging on the streets/football matches or in pubs to make ends meet? Which would fit with that description mentioned earlier in this thread from 1950 (?) of him having died in poverty.

Following his death Sarah was again to enter into the workhouse - Sefton General Hospital, Toxteth Park Workhouse on 11 October 1916, her address being shown as that of her sister, Emily Brown at 1 Toxteth Place. She is described as "Phthsis and Dest (ie destitute), Phthsis other wise being tuberculosis. She was to remain in the hospital for quite some time, being discharged on 30 August 1917, but was readmitted on 31 December just 4 months later with what was described as acute bronchitis. Her final entry for date of death was 14 May 1918, where her condition was described as pulmonary tuberculosis. Her entry showed her as being a widow, and her sister as being her relative, and also recorded that her husband John was a musician. (She had again been admitted from her sister's address in Toxteth Place).

The records for the workhouse showed a variation in entries for her date of birth that in 1916 showing it as 27 August 1873, that in 1916 giving it as May 27th 1872. (Well at least the entries both agreed on it being 27th! )

So all three of his wives, actual or bigamous, died in straightened circumstances
Elizabeth died in Devon County Asylum in Exminster in 1914 having being admitted there on 27 January 1914, Minnie died in the workhouse in 1908, and Sarah who outlasted them all died in poverty and ill health in Liverpool Workhouse in 1918 .


 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Irene S.