Swappable Reed Sets?

[ethornber]

I am not an instrument builder, so please be gentle if this idea is completely mad.

 

To those of you who ARE builders out there, how possible would it be to build reed pans that can be replaced? A few weeks ago my wife and I went to the Galax Leaf and String bluegrass festival in Virginia, and were exposed to some very very skilled session players. As bluegrass instruments are almost entirely stringed instruments, key changes were accomplished either by capo-ing the neck of the instrument, or quick retuning of the strings, and it got me thinking.

 

Access to the reeds in a perpendicular mount (as the Hohners) is trivially easy, but what about other styles of concertina? Would the expense and difficulty of swapping between, say, a C/G set and a G/D set outweigh the expense of simply keeping two instruments handy?

[JimLucas]

Would the expense and difficulty of swapping between, say, a C/G set and a G/D set outweigh the expense of simply keeping two instruments handy?

I've heard of a couple of old Wheatastones with more than one set of reed pans, which could be swapped, but they're very rare.

 

Swapping reed pans in and out should be trivial, once the ends are open, but I think that's where you'll run into trouble. You might be able to "retune" along with the 5-string banjos -- i.e., for sets of tunes, -- but the time required to remove and replace the end bolts would likely prevent you from retuning between one tune and the next. There's also a danger that a reed pan might warp if left out of the instrument for any great length of time .

[jim brewster]

Would the expense and difficulty of swapping between, say, a C/G set and a G/D set outweigh the expense of simply keeping two instruments handy?

You are addressing the fundamental flaw of the anglo design. For a jam-friendly concertina design, consider a Hayden duet.

[JimLucas]

For a jam-friendly concertina design, consider a Hayden duet.

Or another kind of duet, or an English.

[Chris Ghent]

One of my projects down the road a little is a set of C/G pans for my Jeffries G/D, so I don't want to define it as a mad idea. It is not as practical as a capo, as people have pointed out, because it would take five minutes or so to change them over. Then again, it is much cheaper than two concertinas. I can imagine taking it out in G/D trim to the shanty session and in C/G to the Irish one.

 

With a redesign, perhaps so that one central wingnut undid the end it could be changed in about a minute. If there was a horizontal brace across the back of the bellows hex and a threaded rod coming from the center of that, this could be done, with attention to downstream detail. Tuners and repairers would cheer, no more taking six screws out every five minutes. Another possibility would be hinges on one side and a clasp on the other.

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

With a redesign, perhaps so that one central wingnut undid the end it could be changed in about a minute.

I don't think that's particularly feasible, for a couple of reasons.

.. 1) A centered wingnut would be right next to the buttons and between them and the hand rail on an anglo. I would expect this to interfere with playing. (The button layout would prevent its use on an English or duet.)

.. 2) The braced rod you suggest would be through the hole in the reed pan and could make it more difficult to lift it out. (This could be remedied by having the rod attached to the end, so that it lifts out of the way when you remove the end.)

.. 3) Without separate clamping of each edge, there would be much greater danger of developing leaks through warping.

 

So let me suggest an alternative design. If it's patentable -- something I doubt, -- I hereby declare it in the public domain.

... Use lever-actuated spring clips -- an item I've seen used in various other contexts, from closing packing containers to sealing pipe joins and Dewar flasks, -- one on each edge in place of (both meanings) the end bolts.

... To open, flip up 6 (or 8) levers, push the clamps free, and lift off the end. To close, replace the end, flip the clamps into position, and press the levers down. A rim, pin-and-hole combinations, or something equivalent would probably be helpful for precisely aligning the ends before clamping.

... You should probably inset these clamps into both the "top" and "sides" of the end to reduce the risk of their catching on things. (If they did catch, the danger would probably be more to clothing, etc. than a danger of the end coming open. The latter would require releasing all but one or even all of the clips.)

... A similar mechanism could be used to clamp the reed pans not in use between paired compression plates, to prevent warping or other damage.

... The only possible disadvantage I've thought of to this arrangement is that it could make it possible for a child to open the end of the instrument.

 

Edited to correct a typo and add some clarification.

Edited June 24, 2004 by JimLucas

[Robin Madge]

And I was thinking long term about a set of reed pans for my 67 key McCann to turn it into an C/G/D/A Anglo!

 

Robin Madge

[JimLucas]

And I was thinking long term about a set of reed pans for my 67 key McCann to turn it into an C/G/D/A Anglo!

Only four keys, but multiple "acidental" rows?

You would, of course, have a most unusual button layout, since the contours of the "rows" are quite different from those on a proper anglo.

 

Instead, you might consider tracking down the custom anglo that Ron Shuttleworth had made for him many years ago, to see if the current owner would like to sell. As I recall, it had 60-odd buttons with 3 or 4 "central" keys. I think Crabb built it for him. When I saw it (about 30 years ago) he said he wanted to sell it, because he had decided it was too heavy to be practical.

 

Edited to add these corrections:

I didn't see Ron's anglo "30 years ago", but in 1981. (My second trip to England, not my first.)

Also, not "60-odd" buttons. Geoffrey Crabb's records are better than my memory: He says, "the Shuttleworth Anglo #18472 mentioned elsewhere in these forums was only 53 key".

Edited July 23, 2004 by JimLucas

[Stephen Chambers]

you might consider tracking down the custom anglo that Ron Shuttleworth had made for him many years ago, to see if the current owner would like to sell.  As I recall, it had 60-odd buttons with 3 or 4 "central" keys.  I think Crabb built it for him.  When I saw it (about 30 years ago) he said he wanted to sell it, because he had decided it was too heavy to be practical.

It sounds a bit like a (duet-sized) Wheatstone Aeola anglo that Paul Davies had about ten years ago. A wonderful machine, but hard work to play. The story was that It had been made in the 1920's for a boxer (it wasn't yourself was it Jim ? ).

 

Cheers !

[JimLucas]

It sounds a bit like a (duet-sized) Wheatstone Aeola anglo that Paul Davies had about ten years ago.

I think that must be a different one. I recall Ron saying that his was made specifically for him, to his own design, but that in reality he found the size and weight too cumbersome.

[Stephen Chambers]

I think that must be a different one.  I recall Ron saying that his was made specifically for him, to his own design, but that in reality he found the size and weight too cumbersome.

I'm quite sure it was a different one, I wasn't meaning to suggest it was the same. I would say, though, that you would want to have the arm muscles of a boxer to play either of them, heavyweights indeed !

[JimLucas]

...you would want to have the arm muscles of a boxer to play either of them, heavyweights indeed !

You mean like I do -- standing -- with my double-action contrabass English?

[Stephen Chambers]

You mean like I do -- standing -- with my double-action contrabass English? 

Yes, but don't most boxers use a Bullworker instead ?

[Chris Ghent]

I don't think that's particularly feasible, for a couple of reasons.

.. 1) A centered wingnut would be right next to the buttons and between them and the hand rail on an anglo. I would expect this to interfere with playing. (The button layout would prevent its use on an English or duet.)

.. 2) The braced rod you suggest would be through the hole in the reed pan and could make it more difficult to lift it out. (This could be remedied by having the rod attached to the end, so that it lifts out of the way when you remove the end.)

.. 3) Without separate clamping of each edge, there would be much greater danger of developing leaks through warping.

Jim, my suggestions were only semi serious, what I was doing was using the system of imagining how I'd like it to work, and then working out how to do it afterwards, rather than starting with an assumption that some things can't be done or are difficult. And it is true, I'd like a "one bolt" system on the ends; only because I am a tinkerer. Most people wouldn't care because if possible they don't want to ever have to know what is in there.

 

If you remove the word wingnut, which was the clue to the amusement factor, and imagine a flush fastener, something like the round bolt with a slot in it on the base of a camera where the batteries go, with the slot big enough to take the edge of a small coin, it would not get in the way. The rod would not have to come through the centre of the concertina, it could be offset a little. And it would not have to go through the finger hole in the reedpan, another hole is a few seconds work. Air leaks would not be an issue because the design would get around them..! Warping for example would be minimised by making the hex corner joints in a more robust way. That was all covered in the extremely handy phrase "with attention to downstream detail"!

 

In the shower this morning (you have to do your thinking somewhere) I was musing on the look of a delicate brass piano hinge along one side of the hex between the bellows and the end box, and on the opposite side of the hex a single screw in the usual position. The other five screws would still have to be there, they would hold the action box together and not go down into the bellows hex. As for the ramifications (ie. the bellows hex and the end box hex are not actually on the same plane, hence a hinge would not sit well on both, hang on, solved that one already, it could go inwards on the bellows hex and up the side of the end hex), well, they would be worked out when it came time to look at the downstream detail.

 

I have often wondered what a concertina would look like if designed today. O rings for sealing seem like a good bet. A quick release system for the ends seems like another. Anyone got any other suggestions?

 

regs

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

Jim, my suggestions were only semi serious,  what I was doing was using the system of imagining how I'd like it to work, and then working out how to do it afterwards, rather than starting with an assumption that some things can't be done or are difficult.

OK, I didn't pick up on the "semi" part., but in any case, I wasn't trying to criticize, but to help develop what seems like a workable idea. It can be done, and the "difficult" I want to avoid is more the difficulty for the player than for the builder. But I enjoy thinking about technical problems, developing solutions, and then refining those solutions.

 

And it is true, I'd like a "one bolt" system on the ends; only because I am a tinkerer.

Not sure how you mean that. Do you mean that as a tinkerer-builder you would prefer to use a bolt, or that as a tinkerer-player you would prefer unscrewing a bolt to flipping levers? Or just that you like screwing things (pun rejected), and hadn't yet considered alternatives?

 

If you remove the word wingnut, which was the clue to the amusement factor, and imagine a flush fastener, something like the round bolt with a slot in it on the base of a camera where the batteries go, with the slot big enough to take the edge of a small coin, it would not get in the way.

True, but there are still a couple of factors that could cause difficulties. First, one would need a coin (or something similar). What to do if all I have with me is notes or a credit card? Or coins of the wrong size? (Coin vary in thickness not only by denomination, but from country to country.) More important to my mind is how many turns it will take to unscrew the screw. A major pain with modern machine screws is their shallow pitch, which is great for getting really tight clamping, but not for quick insertion and extraction, unless you carry a powered screwdriver with you. (And super-tight clamping is not necessary nor even desirable for concertina ends.) So it seems to me that with screws you would have to make a choice between custom-made bolts (with a steeper thread pitch) or greater difficulty for the person removing and replacing the screws.

 

The rod would not have to come through the centre of the concertina, it could be offset a little.

I think a single screw offset would increase the danger of uneven clamping and warping (point 3 in my previous post), though the extent of that effect would depend on the amount of offset. (Very small if offset slightly from the center; very great if placed in one corner. I know you're not suggesting the latter, but I think the exaggeration makes it easier to visualize the nature of the effect.)

 

And it would not have to go through the finger hole in the reedpan,....

It would still be in the way if it projected up from the bellows. But I already provided my own solution to that "problem".

 

...  That was all covered in the extremely handy phrase "with attention to downstream detail"!

In my personal experience, "downstream details" often discover difficulties which require reconsideration of the basic design. Maybe not in the case of your design, but I'll still be unsure until all the details are there. E.g.,

 

Warping for example would be minimised by making the hex corner joints in a more robust way.

I don't see how redesigning corner joints can compensate for the effect of having pressure on the edges only from "underneath", while the only "topside" pressure is in the middle, which is something that I would expect to cause warping.

 

...I was musing on the look of a delicate brass piano hinge along one side of the hex between the bellows and the end box, and on the opposite side of the hex a single screw in the usual position.

I had thought of that, but dismissed it... again for various reasons.

.. 1) The flipped-up end would still be attached and potentially in the way. That should be insignificant if you're just lifting reed pans in and out, but what about when you want to work on the action?

.. 2) If that's feasible, then why not just two screws, on opposite sides? The fact is that for a reliable seal -- and to counteract warping due to uneven pressure -- clamping should be done along all edges. (Actually, clamping at the corners would be better, but putting screws there interferes with the structural integrity of the joints. The sides are generally good enough, though I have seen a few instruments where the corners have warped upward.)

..3) Getting a good seal around the hinge itself would require very precise insetting of the hinge plates, and if wood screws are used to mount the hinge, they would probably work loose over time.

...well, they would be worked out when it came time to look at the downstream detail.

Well, I'm trying to look at the downstream detail now. That's all.

 

I have often wondered what a concertina would look like if designed today. O rings for sealing seem like a good bet.

Maybe so. I'm not sure it would be superior, though. First, it should be a hex (or octagon, or...) ring, not an O, since it won't seal as well if it's distorted. And that's OK for the rim, but what about where the reed pan fits into the bellows end? And the material? I suppose there are materials that would retain their properties over 50 years and more, but I'm not sure. On further consideration, that option was already open to Wheatstone, et al... in the form of waxed twine. I've even seen that used as gasketing between the end and bellows of a button accordion. So I might wonder why that design wasn't used, not even by Lachenal, with his mass-production techniques.

 

Lest you think I only pick apart others' designs, let me get back to my own idea of lever-actuated spring clamps. While they are a standard item, I'm not at all sure that clamps of the necessary size, strength, and quality are available "off the shelf". Having them custom made could be prohibitively expensive. Then there is the "downstream detail" of fitting them into the ends and bellows frames so as to prevent their sticking out and catching on things. Not trivial, since it could affect the structural integrity of those parts. So I'll continue to try to think of something better.

 

Of course, with a midi concertina, it wouldn't be necessary to switch reed pans, only to flip a switch. But that's a completely different approach, which raises other considerations. And since it's already a separate Topic, I won't pursue it here.

[Greg Jowaisas]

Regarding a quick release clamping system: How about a scaled down version of the cams that hold Danish modular furniture together?

 

I've never taken apart an Edgley concertina but my understanding is that Mr. Edgley has a way of doing his endbolts that requires only a few turns of each bolt to free up the ends. Perhaps Frank has an idea?

 

Best of luck to the engineers.

 

Greg

[Pete Dickey]

Just getting back to the original post.

 

Chris Algar was saying he owns a set of reedpans in their original case which were supplied originally as an additional set for a concertina.

 

During music-hall days, apparently a number of performers took a spare set with them of different tuning since some orchestras/bands' instruments were tuned to old pitch and some to modern pitch. A few minutes spent swapping the reedpans saved a lot of hassle. Changing keys say from C/G to G/D would just be an extension of this principle.

 

Pete

[Stephen Chambers]

Chris Algar was saying he owns a set of reedpans in their original case which were supplied originally as an additional set for a concertina.

You remind me of a man I visited in Manchester more than 30 years ago, who had a beautiful Edeophone with reeds in "Old Philharmonic" pitch (about half a semitone sharp) made by Lachenal's top tuner Mr. Green. Rather than have it retuned, and risk spoiling those magnificent reeds, he later had another set of pans made, with low pitch reeds, and these came from Lachenal's in a fitted mahogany box.

 

For what it's worth, I would be very worried about people changing over reedpans whenever they want to change key. The reeds and valves are easily damaged even in a workshop situation, never mind on a pub table, and there are serious risks of introducing dust, fluff & hair into the instrument, causing notes to stop sounding. There is also a serious risk of warping the reedpans that have been removed, if they are not stored properly. My own opinion is that you are much better off with a complete instrument in any given key or pitch.