Air button control on Anglo

[david_boveri]

this discussion has been helpful for me, because even though it felt spontaneous (the idea hit me to use the air button for phrasing while at a coffee shop), i think it was because this discussion had "activated" the air button for me (i'm a cognitive psychology grad student--sorry. "activated" information = readily available for use at a neurological level, but not at a conscious level).

 

Using the air button for phrasing, wow, one of these days send me a sound sample please, I'd curious to hear that. Meanwhile, please don't become yet another Martin Hayes clone, I can't stand it! (Although I've never met a Martin Hayes close that wasn't cloning on fiddle!).

 

I often readjust my bellows by playing a note while pushing the air button... so the note will require more air and will allow me to pull a lot, but I'm not sure if it affects the sound of the note.

 

no, i'm not going to become another martin hayes clone, :-P. i'm just toying around with it to learn how to take some of the edge off, or to make the abrasiveness sound even more distinct when i want to. it's really just helping me make the sounds i was TRYING to make before, but tend to make my concertina loud and not balance well with others. since i just started listening to martin hayes in the last month or two, those sounds weren't martin hayes sounds, :-P.

 

if you watch this video of me playing from the beginning of decembner,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_NXCYUtpQ8, you can see that (aside from me not knowing those tunes very well), the biggest problem is that sometimes when i try to put an interesting shape on a note, it gets too loud and doesn't mix well with the fiddle, and it blows out the mic. blake's fiddle, by the way, is unbelievably loud, and i still have trouble staying "underneath" it. i've been working a lot on this, and i thought i had the problem solved, but it seems that with this "air button thing" i might have another tool in my toolbox. time will tell if the air button is effective for shaping notes or not.... i did some preliminary recordings, as i suspected, most of the time you can't notice when i'm using it, but i can do a martin hayes-like long note that withers away into nothing at the end of it if i want (very difficult!).

 

yeah, pushing a note while pushing the air button is the standard way of doing it, but was not always the case, as can be seen by this picture: tutor from 1846.

 

what i'm messing with is just a variation on the regular "play note with air button". normally i would play the air button for a whole not or more . after much practice, it doesn't change the sound of the note, especially if you do jodie kruskal's exercise of starting and stopping the air button without an audible change in tone. basically, what i'm messing with now is starting and stopping the air valve in the middle of notes, as well as right before or right after the beginning of notes, and messing with the natural "negatives" of the air valve.... you can play a long, whispy attack into a note, a long, fading end to a note, or even use it to get some pop into the notes (by letting go quickly and giving the concertina a snap). my favorite thing so far is to start a note with the air button closed, press it down all the way in the middle of the note, and pull as fast as i can to get really interesting swell in the middle of the note.

 

a lot of the subtlety of it all seems to get lost when i play fast, so even if i keep doing it in the long run, you might not ever notice it unless it was pointed out. i try not to get too much of my experimental musings online, but you got me to blab, . you won't be able to get me to post the sound clips, though, lol. email maybe...

[Ardie]

..the idea hit me to use the air button for phrasing...

 

Using the air button for phrasing, wow, one of these days send me a sound sample please, I'd curious to hear that...I often readjust my bellows by playing a note while pushing the air button... but I'm not sure if it affects the sound of the note.

 

This "activates" (David Boveri) the idea using "Bowing valves" according to Alsepti for Englishes. They are often ridiculed and meant to be useless but IF they are useful the practise would be a little bit similar to what David describes. It would be interesting to find some English-player who really has tried to use them like Alsepti suggested with the specific object to improve phrasing possibilities.In theory it seems selfevident that they do.The way you start a note - by using the bellows or by using the button - affects the sound.By manipulating the air button (or bowing valve)you can for instance on a continuous phrase for which you only use the push notes take new "breath" for each note and start it by the bellows ( instead of by the button).In theory. IF it has any real musical importance I don't know, maybe if you intend to imitate playing violin.Better do that with a fiddle maybe...

[david_boveri]

..the idea hit me to use the air button for phrasing...

 

Using the air button for phrasing, wow, one of these days send me a sound sample please, I'd curious to hear that...I often readjust my bellows by playing a note while pushing the air button... but I'm not sure if it affects the sound of the note.

 

This "activates" (David Boveri) the idea using "Bowing valves" according to Alsepti for Englishes. They are often ridiculed and meant to be useless but IF they are useful the practise would be a little bit similar to what David describes. It would be interesting to find some English-player who really has tried to use them like Alsepti suggested with the specific object to improve phrasing possibilities.In theory it seems selfevident that they do.The way you start a note - by using the bellows or by using the button - affects the sound.By manipulating the air button (or bowing valve)you can for instance on a continuous phrase for which you only use the push notes take new "breath" for each note and start it by the bellows ( instead of by the button).In theory. IF it has any real musical importance I don't know, maybe if you intend to imitate playing violin.Better do that with a fiddle maybe...

 

Do you have a link for this? I am familiar with regondi, but not Alsepti. Idon't play English so I'm not too up to date on historical players, but if i had an english I would definitely would want bowing valves. Good to know there may be historical precedent for what I am working on.

[michael sam wild]

Things are getting better after the little extension and I'm hovering near the button. Do people playing in D on a C/G tend to express air with a 'burst' when the bellows extend or never get into that situation?

 

 

I note Chris Sherburn hardly moves his bellows and he only has 4 folds I think ! maybe being mic'd up helps with volume .

 

 

 

I exploring all the options in key of D on the Jeffries C/G 26 button when it comes to which buttons and bellows direction and I'm making the avoidance of 'chopping' a priority at the moment which is challenging.

 

What is apparent is that the tune David Levine recommended to me , The Maid Behind the Bar, needs every way of getting the notes so there is no single way, You have to go for it anew with each tune. Is that what the 'Noel Hill' exprerience teaches?

Edited February 5, 2011 by michael sam wild

[Mikefule]

It took me about a year or so to do anything with the air button except open the bellows for the start of playing. Every time I tried to use it, I ended up with a "silent sucking note".

 

However, after a cryptic "throwaway" comment by my teacher, at exactly the right time in my learning curve, I got the message and practised nothing else but using the air button in simple familiar tunes for a month. My playing has never looked back.

 

There are some tunes that present more of a challenge than others. When the tune tends to have the bellows going one way more than the other, and there are no good opportunities for the box to "take a breath" (or breathe out) I try to compromise with a couple of block chords, or finding an alternative fingering.

 

If Brian Peters can play such amazing ragtime on the Anglo, then it isn't the Anglo that needs modifying; it is my playing that needs improving.

 

Practise practise practise.

[Rod]

It took me about a year or so to do anything with the air button except open the bellows for the start of playing. Every time I tried to use it, I ended up with a "silent sucking note".

 

However, after a cryptic "throwaway" comment by my teacher, at exactly the right time in my learning curve, I got the message and practised nothing else but using the air button in simple familiar tunes for a month. My playing has never looked back.

 

There are some tunes that present more of a challenge than others. When the tune tends to have the bellows going one way more than the other, and there are no good opportunities for the box to "take a breath" (or breathe out) I try to compromise with a couple of block chords, or finding an alternative fingering.

 

If Brian Peters can play such amazing ragtime on the Anglo, then it isn't the Anglo that needs modifying; it is my playing that needs improving.

 

Practise practise practise.

 

The bellows are the lungs of the instrument and competent'lung' control of the concertina is every bit as vital as it is to singers, and players of reed, woodwind, whistles, brass etc, etc. It could be argued that the air button is the most important button of the lot on an Anglo !!

[Azalin]

I exploring all the options in key of D on the Jeffries C/G 26 button when it comes to which buttons and bellows direction and I'm making the avoidance of 'chopping' a priority at the moment which is challenging.

 

A few years ago before I took the time to learn complete 'cross row' I was mainly using the RH pull D on the C row and I remember having similar problems as you're having in tunes in D, especially because I had to pull the Ds and F#s... but with both possible push D on each side, tunes in D don't end up pulling the bellows that much anymore, anyway not with the way I play my tunes.

 

There's still a trace of my old habits of trying to avoid too much pull in D tunes though. In the tune "Fred Fynn's", I start the first phrase with push A on the LH accidental row. I don't use that button much, and today I could probably use the 'normal' pull A on the LH C row, but I still like the 'bounciness' going from push A to pull F# in that tune, so I kept it intact. But I had to re-work pretty much all my repertoire of tunes when I switched to using mainly push D/pull E in the LH G row index finger, although I'm still using the reverse one on the RH in many tunes, and often combining both.

[Ardie]

..the idea hit me to use the air button for phrasing...

 

Using the air button for phrasing, wow, one of these days send me a sound sample please, I'd curious to hear that...I often readjust my bellows by playing a note while pushing the air button... but I'm not sure if it affects the sound of the note.

 

This "activates" (David Boveri) the idea using "Bowing valves" according to Alsepti for Englishes. They are often ridiculed and meant to be useless but IF they are useful the practise would be a little bit similar to what David describes. It would be interesting to find some English-player who really has tried to use them like Alsepti suggested with the specific object to improve phrasing possibilities.In theory it seems selfevident that they do.The way you start a note - by using the bellows or by using the button - affects the sound.By manipulating the air button (or bowing valve)you can for instance on a continuous phrase for which you only use the push notes take new "breath" for each note and start it by the bellows ( instead of by the button).In theory. IF it has any real musical importance I don't know, maybe if you intend to imitate playing violin.Better do that with a fiddle maybe...

 

Do you have a link for this? I am familiar with regondi, but not Alsepti. Idon't play English so I'm not too up to date on historical players, but if i had an english I would definitely would want bowing valves. Good to know there may be historical precedent for what I am working on.

 

You find the patent paper here:

http://www.concertina.com/patents/Alsepti-Ballinger-No-8290-of-1885.pdf

 

and a little about the tutor here:

http://www.concertina.com/merris/bibliography/english-tutors.htm

 

Maybe you can find a copy of the entire tutor somewhere too

[Azalin]

you can see that (aside from me not knowing those tunes very well), the biggest problem is that sometimes when i try to put an interesting shape on a note, it gets too loud and doesn't mix well with the fiddle, and it blows out the mic. blake's fiddle, by the way, is unbelievably loud, and i still have trouble staying "underneath" it.

 

Haha, you've been 'caught with your pants down' in that video, when he starts playing an octave lower we can more easily distinguish your notes (or lack of some of them!) ;-) Yes I've been told before in some workshops that we should try to control the volume of the concertina so that it stays stable. I often hear people playing chords and the volume goes up 50% in the process, it's not very musical in my opinion and distracts from the music. But I think you're doing OK volume-wise, but it's true we can only mainly hear the fiddle, it's very loud! In a perfect world, musicians would try to adjust their volume to match other instruments and I don't think we need that much volume when being recorded... but some people can only play loud and have a hard time toning down, I think.

[michael sam wild]

last night we had the pleasure at Royal concerinas here in Sheffield of the company of c.netter Robin Harrison and Paul Read, now resident in Canada.

 

I mentioned the issue to Geoff Crabb who was also up for a visit and Robin showed me his custom made lovely Dipper Anglo with a thumb strap as well as a wrist strap on the RHS and a lever for air!

 

Just what I had been considering. He said he'll post something here.

[david_boveri]

you can see that (aside from me not knowing those tunes very well), the biggest problem is that sometimes when i try to put an interesting shape on a note, it gets too loud and doesn't mix well with the fiddle, and it blows out the mic. blake's fiddle, by the way, is unbelievably loud, and i still have trouble staying "underneath" it.

 

Haha, you've been 'caught with your pants down' in that video, when he starts playing an octave lower we can more easily distinguish your notes (or lack of some of them!) ;-) Yes I've been told before in some workshops that we should try to control the volume of the concertina so that it stays stable. I often hear people playing chords and the volume goes up 50% in the process, it's not very musical in my opinion and distracts from the music. But I think you're doing OK volume-wise, but it's true we can only mainly hear the fiddle, it's very loud! In a perfect world, musicians would try to adjust their volume to match other instruments and I don't think we need that much volume when being recorded... but some people can only play loud and have a hard time toning down, I think.

 

we are going for a "duet" style of playing, which is supposed to lose the sound of the individual instruments (cf. trian recordings, etc.). we decided to put the fiddle in the forefront of the sound. so, it's funny that people tend to want to hear more of the concertina, as that is exactly what we were trying to avoid. in that respect, we would call it a success! . if you listen to 3:19 to 3:21 in the video, that is exactly the sound we were going for, and is my favorite point of the video.

 

an example of the concertina taking the forefront in duet style recording isinoel hill's "irish concertina 2" recording. liam o'connor's fiddle playing is so subtle that upon first listening you cannot immediately tell which tracks have fiddle on them and which do not. contrast that to "noel hill and tony linnane," where every instrument can be distinctly heard at any given moment.

 

on joe derrane's solo album, "the tie that binds," joe instead chose to take the overwhelming sound of the accordion and use it to lift up the musicians guesting on his album. it is unbelievably uncanny how difficult it is to tell which instruments are playing. on many of the tracks, you have to convince yourself that there is an accordion, as joe effortlessly plays under pipes, flute, fiddle, and even a banjo! likewise, on trian's albums, liz carroll and billy mccomisky blend so effortlessly you cannot tell which instruments are playing.

 

a very notable example of "duet style" playing is kitty lie over, by mick o'brien and caoimhin ó raghallaigh. the fiddle usually hides within the sound of the pipes, but manages to do this while often playing very different variations.

 

when i listen to the video of blake and i playing, i can hear the concertina the entire time. that might be because i am the one playing, :-P, but i don't think that blake is too loud in comparison to me. that might be the case, however, if we were going for a different style, so i understand the confusion (many people have said this to us). when i was on the radio a couple weeks ago, someone called in (or facebooked in, i can't remember) to ask to hear me by myself, because they had trouble hearing the concertina. my mom was in the sound booth during the show, and had remarked the same thing. i was doing this on purpose, however, and i would rather have people calling in to hear me play than calling in to tell me to stop!

[Ardie]

I mentioned the issue to Geoff Crabb who was also up for a visit and Robin showed me his custom made lovely Dipper Anglo with a thumb strap as well as a wrist strap on the RHS and a lever for air!

Just what I had been considering. He said he'll post something here.

 

Interesting...Someone got a photo of it or another instrument with some similar design?

[david fabre]

Stimulated by this discussion I have tried to use the air button to "shape" notes as suggested by David B ;

unfortunately, on my wheatstone, when i use it too much the air button tends to squeak !

It is made of bone, and not bushed.

 

More generally, I have observed that on most instruments (at least those I've had the opportunity to inspect in detail)

the air button is not bushed.

Considering that most players use it a lot, and maybe much more than some reed buttons, why is it so ???

[david_boveri]

Stimulated by this discussion I have tried to use the air button to "shape" notes as suggested by David B ;

unfortunately, on my wheatstone, when i use it too much the air button tends to squeak !

It is made of bone, and not bushed.

 

More generally, I have observed that on most instruments (at least those I've had the opportunity to inspect in detail)

the air button is not bushed.

Considering that most players use it a lot, and maybe much more than some reed buttons, why is it so ???

 

that is interesting. i noticed the other day that an old jones that my friend had did not have the air button bushed. the air button on mine has bushing, but it is very new. the jones i played also had bone buttons, so perhaps it is a bone button thing?

[Rod]

Stimulated by this discussion I have tried to use the air button to "shape" notes as suggested by David B ;

unfortunately, on my wheatstone, when i use it too much the air button tends to squeak !

It is made of bone, and not bushed.

 

More generally, I have observed that on most instruments (at least those I've had the opportunity to inspect in detail)

the air button is not bushed.

Considering that most players use it a lot, and maybe much more than some reed buttons, why is it so ???

 

that is interesting. i noticed the other day that an old jones that my friend had did not have the air button bushed. the air button on mine has bushing, but it is very new. the jones i played also had bone buttons, so perhaps it is a bone button thing?

 

Experience suggests to me that the aperture beneath the air button on an Anglo should always be every bit as large as space will allow but I wonder if this is always the case and if so why not. When gasping for air in an emergency the instrument needs all the help it can get. The button should of course be bushed on a quality instrument.

How many Anglos are built with an air button on both sides ?