michael sam wild Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) i'm interested in how members who play these tunes have approached the challenge. I'm particularly interested in Anglo as the bellows direction and button choice is pretty crucial. If chords are added in places that is more so. How do tutors in the tradition approach it. On the Tommy Mc Carthy programme on TG4 his grandchildren seemed to have the fingering OK but were playing slowly, is it just a matter of getting it right, then gradually building up speed to the eight 8th notes (quavers)and chosen ornaments per bar? After many years playing such tunes on a range of instruments with some great players I still find the C/G Anglo a very challenging instrument for smooth and danceable reels. How many years did it take you? Edited January 9, 2011 by michael sam wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 How do tutors in the tradition approach it. On the Tommy Mc Carthy programme on TG4 his grandchildren seemed to have the fingering OK but were playing slowly, is it just a matter of getting it right, then gradually building up speed to the eight 8th notes (quavers)and chosen ornaments per bar? Well, I'm no expert, but I'd say carefully choosing what buttons to push and pull in a phrase is the most important way to get your playing 'smooth' enough for reels. I'd say I can only play half of my reels in a satisfying manner, and need to constantly improve my fingering on the other half. I smoothen some phrases constantly by changing, for example, a RH push C to the LH pull C, or alternating between the LH push D and the RH push D. Lately, I've changed many parts of some of my reels to play three notes in a row on the pull, instead of pull-push-pull or push-pull-push, and it can help smoothen a phrase and decrease the burden on your fingers. The catch is that you still want to push-pull to get the 'right swing at the right place'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) that is quite the question! although fingering choice is very helpful, it will not by default give you an increase in speed. that comes with practice. of course, you can try pushing yourself with a metronome by starting slow and increasing the speed gradually. however, i am sure you are aware of such tricks. the key to increasing speed is getting control of those bellows, and putting space between the notes. if your bellows are flopping back and forth as you play, that will steal potential speed and make your life more difficult. your bellows should be traveling more or less in a straight line--in and out. try to keep them as parallel as possible. more advanced playing is much more adaptive to the needs of every reed given the desired tone color, volume, and presence of chords, but the stability afforded by avoiding unnecessarily lateral movement is maintained. putting space between notes means lifting up one's fingers between the notes longer than you might think is necessary. the 30 key anglo concertina has 60 different reeds, which means 60 different harmonic systems which must achieve resonance individually, in comparison to a flute which is a single column of vibrating air. when you press a button and put air into the concertina you are starting a harmonic oscillation which ultimately will achieve resonance. when the reed achieves resonance, it is clear and pure--the nice, gritty attack that precedes this is the sound of the reed "starting up," like an engine just after you turn the key. notice that the lower notes have a great, honky sound when they start. you HAVE to account for this delay when playing quickly. otherwise what happens is that even though your fingers seem to be moving in time, your notes sound sloppy, they overlap, and then effectively you can't play quickly. the best way to account for this is to add space not before each note, but AFTERwards, by lifting up your finger earlier than you would expect. think of it as if the buttons are hot, or sharp and pointy, and that you can only handle putting your finger down long enough. after you pick up your finger, the pad must close, and then the reed will no longer receive air. see... there is a delay after you take up your finger as well! by stopping notes early, you are increasing the likelihood that the reed will not be resonating while the next reed starts oscillating. it is best not to over think it, but just try to think of fast playing as almost staccato like... there are definitely some players who differ on whether or not they play legato or staccato (think mary mcnamara vs. noel hill), but all concertina players must add that extra space between their notes, because of the unique nature of the instrument. let me know if that helps! Edited January 11, 2011 by david_boveri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Thanks azalin and David. Helpful advice. I have just found Simon Wells' recent updated tutorial which has been useful too. I'm finding that playing the tunes at undotted hornpipe speed helps and reducing the amount of ornamentation at first gives focus. My personal goal is those smooth West Clare reels that just trip along. What is impressive is how some of the older players achieved that on old German concertinas as well as the better quality English made Anglo concertinas. Luckily there are some great players in that style so there are lots of role models, some quite young. I play a 26 button Jeffries C/G with a customised layout which I am still considering modifying so I can't blame any 'shortcomings' on the instrument, it's just a matter of time I reckon. When I play with a fiddler friend who is into Donegal style like John Doherty or Tommy Peoples it is another learning challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Hey Michael, if I get a chance I might make a video on what it sounds like to practice slowly in a way that can "upgrade" to quick playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) That would be helpful. If you can photograph both ends like on the Vallelly CD it would be nice. Just off to play with a deman piper and a fiddler who takesno prisoners! Edited January 16, 2011 by michael sam wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 And when we got there Bryony Lemon on box and sister Gracie on pipes with friends so a sizzling session. Check them out. I got her CD (2009) lovely playing. She plays a Saltarelle blue 2 row in B/C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 That would be helpful. If you can photograph both ends like on the Vallelly CD it would be nice. Just off to play with a deman piper and a fiddler who takesno prisoners! hmmm.... interesting challenge. i've already planned out the project. the difficult part is making sure i have two cameras that work together and produce a clear picture of the concertina. i'll let you know after i do some run throughs whether or the not i can move forward with making something worth watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 That would be helpful. If you can photograph both ends like on the Vallelly CD it would be nice. Just off to play with a deman piper and a fiddler who takesno prisoners! hmmm.... interesting challenge. i've already planned out the project. the difficult part is making sure i have two cameras that work together and produce a clear picture of the concertina. i'll let you know after i do some run throughs whether or the not i can move forward with making something worth watching. Hi David A while ago one of the members was working on a similar type project, but I couldn't find it. It was solved with two mirrors. One to see the other side, and the second to correct the image reversal. The rest was aligning everything to look good. Worth a thought? Thanks Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 The mirror is a good idea, but to do it with two cameras I think you'd need a video card on your PC that has two video-in, and then a software like Adobe Premiere that can capture the two feeds, but I'm sure there are many other ways to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Levine Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 There are no secrets or short-cuts. Play slowly till you get the tune absolutely perfect. Then you will speed up naturally. If you make just one teeny tiny mistake then you are probably playing too fast. It may take years and you may never get "there," wherever "there" is. But there is much more beauty in a tune that is played slowly and gracefully than there is in a tune played swiftly, with bad notes and jerky rhythm. I also find it impossible to play Irish music without total dedication to the tunes. That is, I don't play any other traditional music on the concertina. We've had this discussion before. I still don't know of any player who can play ITM convincingly, as well as play other styles in as convincing a fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 The mirror is a good idea, but to do it with two cameras I think you'd need a video card on your PC that has two video-in, and then a software like Adobe Premiere that can capture the two feeds, but I'm sure there are many other ways to do this. i was probably going to record the video as two different clips simultaneously on two different computers, and then edit them together. i like the idea mentioned above of the mirror, but that sounds like just as much work! There are no secrets or short-cuts. Play slowly till you get the tune absolutely perfect. Then you will speed up naturally. If you make just one teeny tiny mistake then you are probably playing too fast. It may take years and you may never get "there," wherever "there" is. But there is much more beauty in a tune that is played slowly and gracefully than there is in a tune played swiftly, with bad notes and jerky rhythm. I also find it impossible to play Irish music without total dedication to the tunes. That is, I don't play any other traditional music on the concertina. We've had this discussion before. I still don't know of any player who can play ITM convincingly, as well as play other styles in as convincing a fashion. well, i do agree with you that one should aim for quality and perfection in one's slow playing. however, what does that sound like? adding space between the notes is essential for quality playing at a slower space, because it is a key component of the sound of quicker playing. for example, playing a reel with air-like sonority at a slow place will do little for one's ability to play a tune quickly. so, it goes back to what slow playing (with a mind towards fast playing) could sound like. i have heard many good players do this (play slowly with space between notes), and i call it "teaching style" playing, but really it is a great way to practice as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 That would be helpful. If you can photograph both ends like on the Vallelly CD it would be nice. Just off to play with a deman piper and a fiddler who takesno prisoners! hmmm.... interesting challenge. i've already planned out the project. the difficult part is making sure i have two cameras that work together and produce a clear picture of the concertina. i'll let you know after i do some run throughs whether or the not i can move forward with making something worth watching. Hi David A while ago one of the members was working on a similar type project, but I couldn't find it. It was solved with two mirrors. One to see the other side, and the second to correct the image reversal. The rest was aligning everything to look good. Worth a thought? Thanks Leo Leo Weren't they on a series on YouTube for EC teaching by a member (Martin?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 There are no secrets or short-cuts. Play slowly till you get the tune absolutely perfect. Then you will speed up naturally. If you make just one teeny tiny mistake then you are probably playing too fast. It may take years and you may never get "there," wherever "there" is. But there is much more beauty in a tune that is played slowly and gracefully than there is in a tune played swiftly, with bad notes and jerky rhythm. I also find it impossible to play Irish music without total dedication to the tunes. That is, I don't play any other traditional music on the concertina. We've had this discussion before. I still don't know of any player who can play ITM convincingly, as well as play other styles in as convincing a fashion. David I am coming to that conclusion and it's a wrench., Other members may care to comment on splitting the mind and soul for different kinds of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Martin Gibson Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 ITM is a special music, Cognescenti know it is only to be played in the manner decreed by Noel Hill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Leo Weren't they on a series on YouTube for EC teaching by a member (Martin?) Hi Michael Martyn (Nytram) had a beginners special that was a part of his experiments with split screen and stereo videos in 3D. His 16 part English for beginners starts here: One of the mirror discussions on concertina.net was in 2007. It took a while, I finally found it. It was from Peter Trimming. http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=6590&view=findpost&p=61961 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Levine Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Beautifully paced tunes. Not fast, but faster than they seem because the playing is so relaxed and unforced. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=4NsG9mCESSQ david_boveri said: one should aim for quality and perfection in one's slow playing. however, what does that sound like? It should sound like somebody playing lovely music. playing a reel with air-like sonority at a slow place will do little for one's ability to play a tune quickly. I don't know about "air-like sonority." I think you know that's not what I meant. Don't put words in my mouth. That said, there is no substitute for playing a tune slowly when learning it. It will speed up of its own accord. Trying to play faster than is comfortable is almost always a musical disaster. My best times are playing with people who get this, who are in no hurry, who don't push the tune past their comfort level. If you want to play for dances, then first learn the tune at a walking pace. Otherwise your music will be f--ked. (Noel Who?) Edited January 23, 2011 by David Levine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Drinkwater Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 That would be helpful. If you can photograph both ends like on the Vallelly CD it would be nice. Just off to play with a deman piper and a fiddler who takesno prisoners! hmmm.... interesting challenge. i've already planned out the project. the difficult part is making sure i have two cameras that work together and produce a clear picture of the concertina. i'll let you know after i do some run throughs whether or the not i can move forward with making something worth watching. Hi David A while ago one of the members was working on a similar type project, but I couldn't find it. It was solved with two mirrors. One to see the other side, and the second to correct the image reversal. The rest was aligning everything to look good. Worth a thought? Thanks Leo Leo Weren't they on a series on YouTube for EC teaching by a member (Martin?) Nope, I am pretty sure it was Peter Trimming, though I can't find that particular video of his on YouTube and therefore a link to it. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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