ragtimer

Well, I guess I could imagine anything, but would I? No, probably not. The reality is that one free reed instrument is enough for me, thanks. If I was to learn yet another instrument I would want something that sounded quite different, like... theremine perhaps. Thanks for the reply, Jody. Yes, it makes sense that you'd want a totally different instrument. My other axes are trombone, piano, and voice, quite a variety. My hands are too shaky for a theremin Besides, you do pretty darn well on the Anglo already! Right, you could easily just squeeze or pull both sides like an Anglo, and maybe without even trying you'd find yourself working harder on the melody side to accent it over the chords, or vice-versa. If I were going to build such an isntrument from scratch, I'd probably redesign the LH button layout to emphasize chords -- but then, this is a Duet player talking Have a great time at NECW this weekend! Wish I could be there again. --Mike K.

Well, Inventor certainly earned his nickname on this one! I wonder how he got the action to the reed pads located directly under the buttons?

Another "sometimes/mostly/usually" distinction: Accordions with more than one reed per note usually have stops (register slides, switches) to turn some of the reed sets on or off. (though my Hohner "Preciosa" Club accordion or melodeon does not). But I wonder if any concertina with multiple reeds per note has registers. I guess Chemnitzers do, and maybe Bandoneons. And just to add to the confusion, "Melodeon" in most of the USA refers to an early type of reed organ, with open spaced legs udner the instrument, which was contained in a rectangular case. Pumped with one foot, and often jsut one set of reeds and no stops. Like the larger, floor model American reed organ, it runs on suction. European "harmoniums" operate on pressure.

Thanks very much for the photo of the prototype Haydenskaya reed plate. Very informative, and hopefully very inspirational to some makers. I counted 29 reed pairs. Is this the bass or treble side? Thanks again.

I don't even play the part of a concertina maker on TV, but I can gues a couple issues related ot making a large plate of reeds. First, if one of the reeds is bad, you have to grind off its rivet and do it over again, or else throw the whole plate away. And placing and riveting one reed surrounded by other reeds has to be dicey. Then you have to apply wind to just one reed at a time for tuning and voicing; some special fixtures would be required, that the tuner could shift the plate around on. Final assembly would be pretty easy, once you *finally* got a 100% good and tuned plateful of reeds. Note that *linear* plates (one long row of reeds) are pretty common -- harmonicas, Melodicas, and I have a junked-out 20-button Anglo with 4 zinc reed plates of 5 pairs each. These can be shifted along a single opening for blowing or drawing, to tune and voice. But a two-dimensional array of reeds, maybe at right angles to one another, would be harder to handle (literally). Just my +/- two cents worth.

I was amazed at some of the "artifacts" that showed up at NESI 2004 -- but nothing this exotic. So the Symphonetta is more like a reed organ, with buttons in the "pedals", and a reservoir to even out the wind supply. Does this prevent percussive accents? European harmoniums have a stop that cuts out the reservoir, allowing for bellows-like expressive effects. Jody, can you imagine ever learning to play an instrument like I suggested, with separate push and pull on two bisonoric halves? If you could be 15 years old again, maybe? That might be easier for an Anglo player than the reversed-CBA unisonoric keys of the Symphonetta. --Mike K.

While I intended this as a joke, I'm a litle suspicious that, if someone were to actually build one of these (and it wouldn't be hard, nor expensive, to convert a Rochelle or D-40), that SOMEONE would take it upon their-self to learn to play it! Human beings are amazingly hard to pin down as to what they can't learn to do -- so pressing one side while drawing the other may not be impossible, if someone puts their mind to it. Of course, in that amount of time and work, they could have learned another 50 tunes on conventional Anglo, and drunk several pubs dry, done their income taxes, raised three kids, helped Jim Lucas to clean out redundant instruments from his "Bay", etc. But as a challenge, someone "ought to" take it up. Maybe extend that center paddle to go down to the ankles, for better support -- you don't have to stand up to play this beast --Mike K.

Really? Any idea what the price range is, and the lead time? Personally, I'd be satisfied with about 55 buttons. Well, that would be quite a project! Laying the accordeon reeds had aginst one another is already done, more or less, in the Morse instruments, and certainly they are packed like sardines in the Hohner Preciosa miniature Club accordeon. Linking enharmonic buttons to eliminate redundant reeds is a good idea, also proposed by Morse. Everyone cites the large number of reeds as the barrier to producing a great-than-46-note Hayden. Yet there are plenty of vintage Maccann and Crane Duets with more than 46 buttons. But then, nobody is making many of those today either. I think we just have to concede that a 50-plus-button Duet has got to be larger diameter than a vintage EC or Anglo. Rather than octave-tuned reed pairs like a bandoneon, I'd perfer a wet-tuned unison pair. But I'd be very pleased with one reed per note.

This is to announce a new design -- the Bisonoric Anglo Duet (B.A.D.) Concertina. Picture an Anglo with a floating frame in the middle of the bellows -- you've seen those. Now imagine that the frame is solid inside and airtight, so it divides the bellows into two chambers. Finally, this frame has a wooden extension paddle out the bottom, which is to be clamped firmly between the player's knees. This anchor point allows the bass (LH) and treble (RH) sides to be squeezed independently of each other. You can push on one side while drawing on the other, thus allowing complete Duet style playing. Sustain a chord on the LH while pumping an Irish jig on the RH. Or hold a melody note on the RH while going thru chord changes on the LH. Or play indpendent countermelodies, just like Duet players try to do in private. You can squeeze the Bass side gently while playing hard on the Treble side, thus overcoming the common complaint that too many Duet players drown out the melody with oom-pah accompiment. Who, me? Anglo players whose lives have been limited to learning yet more ornaments and alternate fingerings for the same 100 Irish tunes, can retrofit the center board to their Anglos and have something new and fresh to work on. Leading neurosurgeons have warned that the human brain cannot possibly learn to squeeze one side while pulling the other. However, these same doctors consider the EC a neurological impossiblity, and refuse to even acknowledge thte existence of the Anglo, no matter how many harmonicas their kids bring home. So ignore the doctors, the same as when you enter a pub, and start learning the B.A.D. today! A famous player who's spent his life learning to play chord-style Anglo says he "plans to lose no time learning this new system!" (Hmmm, what did he mean by that ...?) Get in line to have your Anglo retrofitted. And unload those Cranes, Maccanns, and Haydens on the 'Bay while there's still time! NOTE: Before replying to this post, please note its date, allowing for the GMT delay from the Colonies. Happy April

As a Hayden player, I'm glad to see this come to pass. But I'd be more excited to see the larger (more than 46 buttons) instruments come out first, and still more excited if they were of the more affordable hybrid (accordeon reeded) type. My fantasy, of course, is a 50-odd note Hayden at the Jackie/Rochelle price range OK, I mean, built in China with Rochelle technology (radial riveted action, accordion-style reed cells). Seriously, my current Stagi already has 46 notes, and simply upgrading to a better instrument of the same capabilities doesn't make me want to start saving up. If I have to buy a top-line instrument to get more buttons, someday I may do that. But I don't think I'll rush to get my name on the list just yet. --Mike K.

Thanks very mcu for the melodeon link! That site works very much like this Concertina Net. I was able to learn a lot about "Club" accordions -- including the fact that my "wrong" draw note in the middle F row is part of the scheme -- the Germans call it "Gleichton" (same/like note). Also, my Preciosa is even smaller and nicer than the Hohner Lilliput model, and its flat-mounted reedds give it a brighter sound, so it is said. I also found a link to a very good tutor and facts booklet (online) re the Club system. Now to get it playable -- Mike K.

This is/was a locking mechanism (you will note that there are no bellows straps as on other accordions to keep it closed when not in use). Mine is broken; like yours, it connects to...nothing! However, I don't miss it and have resisted the temptation to add bellows straps or to try and fix it. Thanks. I just figured it out last nite -- by accident! It had been jammed out of position, but after I put the "linkage to nowhere" back in its proper slot, it latched the bellows shut, till I pressed the mystery button. It works fine now. And now I know the odd-shaped hook on the bass reed block is not just a handle for servicing ease I figure it would take a *lot* of experimenting (even at the factory) to get that bass-side hook adjusted to the right height to just snag the release bar, so I'm glad mine works! My thought too, unless someone deliberately had it tuned for blues -- but a straight F chord is so useful (especially when playing in F!) that I'd get it "fixed". My bass chords are generally pretty gritty and sour. Thanks again. These little guys must have been played with wind instruments (clarinets, etc.) to favor the flat keys. --Mike K.

Thanks, Rich! I did indeed bring it home today, and the reed layout inside is just as you describe -- two layers lying flat (like your own tinas) on the soundboard. Bass side is usual accordion layout in stand-off cells. BTW, it was from your BBox web site that I learned it was a "Club", though I don't know that anyone is still makign them this small. An odd feature is a push-in button on the bottom of the RH side, that operates a linkage inside which connects to -- nothing! I wonder if it once drove a register slide to turn off the "wet" reed layer? Another odd hting is that the F/C bass button's chord plays an F7 chord -- either it's jsut way out of tune, or someone had it customized for Blues work! Also one bass pair plays Eb/Bb, and I don't see Eb useful even in key of F. Maybe more reeds way out of tune? Finally, there is a thumb loop screwed to the melody side, maybe not original, which if used, doesn't let your hand reach the lower-pitched buttons. There are also the two big shoulder straps, just like on a large accordion, which may be what you're supposed to use to hold the RH side steady. But the whole thing is so tiny -- just 8" across the keyboard -- that it seems a shame to use the big straps. Anyway, thanks for hte info, and if I decide to get it truly playable (it's so close already), I'll keep the BBox in mind, --Mike K.

I know this is not a concertina, but will describe it enough so someone can steer me to the correct Web site. I just saw in the local antique shop a very small Hohner "Preciosa" button accordion, with two and a half rows of melody buttons on the RH and 8 bass buttons on the LH. The buttons are small and closely spaced, as on a concertina, much smaller than a melodeon's. The first row of RH has 11 buttons that play the standard bisonoric diatonic (Anglo-like) scale. The second row of 10 buttons plays likewise, a 4th higher in pitch. However, its button that plays the 5th tone of the scale also plays that same note on draw, isntead of the 6th tone. Odd. The 3rd row has only 4 buttons, which seem to be odd accidentals (like the 3rd row on an Anglo). The LH buttons are 4 basses and 4 chords, different on push and pull -- a pattern I've seen before. The instrument is *almost* playable -- everything is good except a couple of bass chords are choked, adn that odd 5th tone on the 2nd melody row. I suspect new leather valves are needed on the LH. What is the proper term for this kind of instrument, and where can I learn more? It's so small, lightweight, and cute that it might follow me home --Mike K. Edited to add: It seems this is a "2+ Row Club style", though new models have 12 basses, not 8. It has no stop switches, but the melody seems to have two "wet" tuned reeds per note, an effect I do like.

Right -- I suspected that "natural" scales versus "sharps/flats" predated keyboards, but the distinciton is most obvious when lookign at a piano keyboard (or an EC's columns). Maybe not physically -- but mentally (and you do point out he difference later on. This makes good sense to -- as a keyboard player, I find that two or three "black" keys in the signature serve as guideposts and fit under the hand better than an all-white-key piece. Yes, this is what can slow us down -- having to think too hard about where the next note should be. A similar problem pops up on the Hayden, when a needed accidental runs off the end of the row and has to be found way over on the other side of the buttons (not the other side of the Tina, whew!). This can be physically as well as mentally awkward, and greatly affects the fingering of the preceding notes. Thanks for the advice. I agrree, the Jackie isn't missing any notes within its compass, jsut the duplicates. --Mike K.

Thanks. I had been wondering how much the missing redundant accidentals in the Jackie (very noticeable in the website photos) would affect playing. I can imagine that for someone used to the full key layout, they'd be constantly stubbing fingertips on the Jackie's end plates and making non-family-rated comments. But by learning on a Jackie, future problems would be avoided. Maybe. I've put up with missing "redundant" accidentals in the Hayden Duet, which means either (1) I can learn to deal with them also on the Jackie, or (2) I'll get just as disgusted with the Jackie when trying to play minor keys, and would really like a vacation from missing notes. Anyone else want to weigh in on the missing accidentals versus playability? I've tried that, but the straps still seem awfully binding, and the left hand jsut does not fall naturally ont eh button rows. I should probably pay for one lesson just to get the straps adjusted and my body positioned right --Mike K.

Thanks for not mentioning "oom-pah/boom-chick", which you would have been perfectly justified in so doing. I plead guilty to playing that Duet style a lot. I consider all of those "Duet styles", in the sense that they can be pretty tricky on Anglo or EC but straightforward (I don't mean easy!) on a Duet. I've worked parallel voices in 3rds and 6ths into some of my playing and find it a great change from oompah. (Hmmm, that probably works well on Anglo too). The only thing I find offensive is when some people seem to imply that a certain kind of music can only be played on a certain type of tina. As if I can't really play Irish music cuz I'm not on an Anglo, etc. --Mike K.

Nice. I found myself trying this style recently, jsut to relax. Play the melody on my Duet, and wherever there was a half-note hold in the melody, tap in the appropriate chord. Very un-busy, and it lets the melody shine. I can see where this would be the way to play chordally on an EC or an Anglo -- while the melody is holding a note or resting, you aren't going to reverse the bellows or need the currently free hand (on an EC). But I think it's a good style to get into the habit of playing, when you've had enough "oom-pah". Well, I recently bought na old 120-bass PA, and it's so heavy, and awkward, and you ahve to strap into it. I like jsut picking up my 'tina and slipping hands into the straps. And not getting lost in that sea of buttons. I'll pick a nit with that -- the EC does follow the piano keyboard convention of white notes versus black notes, so the more remote your key, the more you have to play in the outside columns. But playing in lots of sharps/flats is definitely easier than on a Hayden Duet. I do intend to get a Jackie and see if I can coordinate my two hands well enough to get by. --Mike K.

Well, it makes sense the way Jody plays (as in his "Naked Concertina" album) I think I was the guy who said that Jody "plays Anglo like a Duet" and Jody seems to have taken this in a positive way, whew! I'd say anyone who already plays Anglo and wants a more Duet-like style, should indeed step up to a 38+ button Anglo and keep practicing till he can play like Jody or his widow sells the box But for someone starting out, who wants the Duet style, I'd expect that he/she could be playing in a passable Duet fashion with less practice time than learning to play chordal Anglo, or chordal EC. Again, it comes back to what musical style you want to play, and choosing the instrument that fits that best. But FWIW, some days I rest my left hand on my Hayden Duet and jsut play the melody in the RH, and concentrate on phrasing and expression -- and even fantasize getting and EC or Anglo. Melodies are cool! --Mike K.

Damn! Someday my widow will give you a GREAT price

I had a similar experience. I'd literally never seen a concertina of any type before the weekend when I bought my Hadyen Duet. ANd I hadn't heard much either. So I had no idea what to play on it, excpet whatever I wanted to play, that fit a bass/chord accompniment plus melody scheme. I play in a Celtic plus Old-Timey band, and I like all the music, but probably don't play any of it in the "ethnically corrrect" style. SOmetiems jsut melody, sometimes just comp chords, sometimes both -- Duets can do them all I gather "Rapper" means something else on your side of the Pond ... lucky for you! As much as I like the Hayden system, I struggle with some of its shortcomings. For playing in oddball keys (like Eb) or lots of minor scales (like Klezmer), I suspect an English would do better -- faster and better odds of hitting the right notes. But I do enjoy seeing how fast and expressively I can play such melodies, just the same. Well, I've had a hankering to try out the Crane myself, but it's still close to $2K to get in. At last year's NE workshop, I sat with a Crane palyer, and expert Macann teacher, and close to half a dozen Haydens. I didn't know there were that many Hayden players in the world! --Mike K.

And I am SO bummed out about my previous msuical commitment that keps me from atending this year. Everything promises to be even better, and I have to miss! All I can do is keep on practicing ... BTW Rich, show people who come to the B.Box shop the copies Susan Conger's "Along the River" collection. It's got some really fine tunes in it. I work out of it as much as I do the Matthiesen Waltz books and Jody's book. --Mike K.

I tend to agree with this. During a Workshop, I sat in the Button Box showroom and tried out Anglo, English, and Hayden Duet tinas. I could sort of play a scale on the Anglo, having played harmonica in junior high school. But no real idea how to make chords. My left brain approved of the Emglish system, which permits very fast playing in any key -- but I just couldn't make my hands alternate to play a scale. Maybe after a couple hours I could have beaten it into my cerebellum, but who knows? I do intend to try EC again sometime. But I cannot type the owrd "just" or "have" without them coming out "jsut" and "ahve", so I wonder if I could ever time the two hands properly on an EC. Then Rich Morse showed me the Hayden, In less than a minute I was playing scales, and figuning out chords in the LH. Given the fact that I really wanted a miniature piano -- something I could play both melody and chords and bass on -- it was pretty clear which tina I would buy that day. I appreciate that Anglo and English players can add a lot of chording and bass to their playing, but I'd guess that it took them longer to get to that point, not just because it's harder on their instruments, but also the cultural expectations are that they'll play melodies faster and with mroe expression, etc., rather than concentrate on chordal accompaniment. More straight melody playing, I'd advocate an EC or Anglo. For accompnying yourself, I still vote for a Duet. --Mike K.

It's very collectable, worth maybe $10K or more. The group you want to contact isthe MBSI (Music Box Society International) (a.k.a. Mighty Big Spenders ) We have a Web site, tho I don't have it handy. Most MBSI members would buy the Symphonion and put up with the other "stuff" that you have. I'm sure you'll find a willing buyer for it, especially if it's in playing condition, as they often are (no leather bellows or pads to go bad, but springs do break). The metal tongues of music boxes are similar to concertina reeds, but are plucked rather than blown. Tuning them is the same as a reed -- file tip or root. But yes, this is off topic. --Mike K.

I agree that 0.1 cent accuracy is a waste of your time spent punching the + and - buttons over and over to make the pattern stand still. Better to work in 1-cent increments. OK, 0.5 for mechanical engineers But keep in mind that the consequences of poor tuning are not so much between two notes of the same pitch (though in different octaves), but rather in other intervals. Two C's, one 3 cents flat and hte other 3 cents sharp, will have a noticeable but pleasant "wet" or "celeste" beat to them. But, a C that is 3 cents flat and and E that is 3 cents sharp, will add 6 cents to an Major Third interval that, in Equal Temperament, is already 14 cents too wide. Equal thirds sound bad enough already, so sloppy tuning just makes them even worse. So in general, if you tune an entire instrument with too much tolerance, some *intervals* will be too wide, and some too narrow, so some chords will sound rotten while others sound better than average. The guy who always tuens on the sharp side of tolerance has a better chance of avoiding this problem. The best solution is to pick a temperament sytem (equal, meantone, just, whatever) and then tune with as much precision as you can reasonably muster. And hope that when the player squeezes really hard, all the reeds go off by the same amount. --Mike K.