Ardie

Thanks a lot Wim for substantial information.I do wonder however which of these institutes that really offer a special program in the specific free reed technology sector (including reed physics and acoustics) and at which also scientific research is carried out in these fields.You say:"Degrees are in performance and education, but generally include (some schools intensive) theoretical courses on free reed physics." - and that means we do not find "high level" programs in free reed instrument technology among them. Considering the decline in accordion industry ( except possibly Russia or China?) I would be surprised if we find much of the kind after all - and concerning 'our' concertinas I am pretty sure it is non-existing.Is any research on accordion/harmonium/concertina reed physics carried out somewhere today and reports being published? Where? In these discussions you have stressed so hard the importance of "high level" (= formal academic) schooling in mathematics and technology ("usually one or more Master degrees) in performance, construction and history of that instrument, advanced knowledge of general acoustics"...) that I asked about your own background and you gave this answer: It is not very private in real and it certainly belongs to your public image anyhow so I checked your website as you say and it says that you have academic degrees in music performance and education but seemingly not in mathematics or technology.This is no critics and you obviously have managed pretty well in practise all the same but according to your mentioned criteria maybe you are not yet a full-fledged "luthier"...? I am only joking! - but in some way maybe it reflects the essence of the discussion. In the end it is the actual and practical knowledge and experience that counts - not the academic degrees. Concerning your publications your website says nothing as far as I can see and that would hardly be a private matter either.I am sure references where to find the publications would be of great interest for many forum readers.You say at your website: "2000-2007 Research and development of different reed scalings and air flow patterns".Is some of this published and where? As a matter of fact I was not looking for answers to your three examples at all ( although curious to hear them in the end) I was looking for some understanding of the questions first of all since I found them vague and I still do.In common technical language I can not recognize such a thing for instance as "flatten the equilibrium of the reed".Is it possibly a slang expression in the "little world" of reed trade but again what does it mean in such case? ( sorry for the nagging)

I just want to mention a method that often works, also when the problem is a (slightly) warped action board or reed pan. Particularly when you are not tempted to undertake the rather complicated work to grind the action board and reed pan and put on new chamois all over. You simply add a loose gasket underneath the action board, just punching holes in it for the pad holes and end bolt holes. Use a flexible but airtight material 2-4mm thick. An un-orthodox but easy fix that changes nothing else.

Let's say for a moment that we accept your description of these typical requirements to become a concertina-maker.Then the question remains: Where are the seats of learning ( around the World) located where " There are a lot of people graduating from the music technical institutes each year (free reed technicians.....)." ? Tell us where a "Bachelors degree" and "Master degrees" in "performance, construction and history of that instrument" (concertina/accordion) is achievable ? In China? No-one has denied "that making a musical instrument, especially a mechanical one like the concertina, would require a certain amount of knowledge".What is new with "this concept" of yours is that you recommend a path to that knowledge which seems unrealistic - unless, as I asked above, you also can specifically advise where to get the said high level education. Depends which "little world" you refer to...but since I am truly illiterate myself would you kindly offer a fair chance to catch up by telling me where the said universities are located in your world? Sorry, but despite possibly lacking the necessary wit I still wonder what you meant by " 2 flatten the equilibrium of the bass reeds".I trust there are one or two readers in the forum who do have the required "basic knowledge of the subject" and are interested to know as well or might be kind enough to explain what you meant - if you do not want to brush off the dust from the crystal yourself... By the way, you never answered the questions. "What is your own theoretical background in high level mathematics and technology?" and "Maybe you would like to present a list of all your "publications in professional periodicals worldwide"?

Your own questions were rather vaguely formulated and I asked you to clarify them a little.This is partly just a semantic issue and the technical part of it is not at a higher level than being possible to make understandable.I am sure there are several readers here having the "plain theoretical knowledge" to be able to assimilate not only the questions but the possible answers.I think your reply resembles when the child asks 'where babies come from' and we say: "You can not understand now - you will when you get older". So - where around the World is "the basic knowledge necessary to thoroughly understand and improve (in our case reed) performance etc." achievable in real? Seems as if most of the mid 19th century makers do not fit that description and even fewer today.C Wheatstone would hardly qualify concertina-wise and neither would Stradivarius or Cristofori in their fields respectively.What is your own theoretical background in high level mathematics and technology? And you mean such problems can only be solved theoretically and impossibly by practical trials? I am sure many instrument makers have a different view on that... You are welcome, just answer your own questions! Maybe you would like to present a list of all the publications?

Not upset at all! If you please give us the answers maybe some of the potential students here can save a year or two of strenuous theoretical preparations Joke aside - if there are some final answers are they not determined by experiment? Apart from that, please specify the questions a little: 1 Do 'treble reeds' act differently so that the "most effective way..." differs from mid range reeds? What defines a *treble reed*? 2 What exactly do you mean by "flatten the equilibrium"? 3 Do you mean increasing the efficiency (=sound amplitude/pressure ratio)at high pressure compared to low pressure values? Add: Do you mean that one single measure would be the answer to all - 1,2,3??

Chris, did you forget to say what you wished to illustrate with your photo post #21? I notice one detail of particular interest anyway:There seems to be an air valve at the left side. Is there one at the right side as well meaning it is fitted with the Alsepti "Bowing valves"? Is it a Wheatstone? The location of the valve lever is the common one for just being a usual air valve. If being bowing valves the levers usually are activated by extension of the thumb and not by flexion as this one is.

Splendid ! Is it good enough now to make you ( and your neighbours..) satisfied?

Maybe time to get back to real topic: So, how to get on? Simon, haven't you managed yet to find out where the noise might come from?? Is there absolutely no sound from the keys and their holes now or can there still be some? From the key pins? The lever in the key hole? Or is it the pads?

They are what they are, . Do you mean that all instruments known being called concertinas today are concertinas but future novelties are not? When this discussion came up 25 years ago lots of people absolutely refused to call an instrument with accordion type of reeds a "concertina"...but time has changed Here you are being a little offensive...Rich had no need to defend himself to any one. Not offensive at all,I meant to your or my or anybody else's reference of his intentions.That is why I don't want us to argue about them.So let's leave RM aside since we are probably 'right' both of us and he in particular. A clever craftsman or salesman always adapts the product and the description of it to the market and the individual customer ( up to a certain limit of tolerance towards customer eccentricity...) I can't agree about that since I mean reality shows a contradictory diversity Well, they certainly "do" - or believe they do each one by themselves - but if there is no commonly accepted and lasting definition what do they actually know? This discussion has been going on before. Do You have the definite answer?

Isn't that a somewhat narrowing view? People obviously like different things about "concertinas" and "characteristics" as well as "sound" is ambiguous.Chemnitzers and Englishes are very different and the Clarionet English "concertina" doesn't sound like any other concertina at all.. We should not put too many words in RM:s mouth since he can't defend himself but I have heard him say that he did so to please the customers firstly. If they had asked for something else he would have done that and I know he had advanced ideas for a thoroughly redesigned anglo but conservatism in the market held them back. I have heard many other manufacturers saying the same and it is rather expected I think that contrary to conservative players inventive craftsmen may be a lot more interested in developing new constructions but they have to produce objects they expect to sell to make a living.Novelties have to be made on individual special orders on a small market. Simple as that. How do you deal with that when neither "reproduction", function nor definition is settled or agreed upon? "Good or bad" concerning pads in my view is firstly a matter of 1) being tight 2) being silent.If they last 20 or 40 years is rather unimportant.It is neither very costly nor difficult to replace them. Yes, that would be interesting to hear! What are the pad routines among makers using more current materials otherwise?

"preserving" - why? By using "current technology" you make something else already so why be so hesitant towards a continuing progress and changes? In principle I sympathize with that - at least if the instrument is fairly well preserved before i.e having all original parts or missing ones being possible to replace exactly.But retaining "bad" characteristics? Talking about pads again which are consumables anyway.If some current choice of materials can make them more silent - if/when noise is a problem - why not? Not more than 4 inches at most - and it is all "click,slap,slop" where ever the source is located. Some of these noises are not audible for a distant listener but only in the player's position which may be comforting in a way but may still be a distracting torment for the later.Are current products less noisy generally? (understanding that you compare with old instruments in perfect condition)

Can you possibly identify the man showing the Symphonium and other instruments too?

This eccentricity ("closer to the side at the top than the bottom") is the same that you find in almost all large instruments and I think it is the most common layout on smaller (treble size)instruments as well and you even find it on those belonging to the "cheap line" having a rather crude and open SSS-fretwork where an eccentricity of the fretted area definitely would not affect the tone or volume. It is the same with the "oval rather than round" pattern. There is no reason to believe that these characteristics have come from any "attempt to control tone or volume" but just illustrate various decorative intentions. BUT on the other hand - as mentioned above - IF you pick a Duet with *much* reduced opening area ( and shielding of the 'lower/bottom' part) at the left side it *may* be an attempt to limit the volume of the left side which often is reputed as "over-powered". Some mellowing effect on the tone is expected as well.A question to Duet-players regarding this: How many notice a tonal difference between the 'same' notes left vs right in the overlapping range? There is a considerable risk that unjustified rumours come up regarding various sophisticated 'intentions' or 'attempts' among early makers while the true deciding factors may have been pure economic or processing considerations and sometimes merely eccentric taste among the customers...

Where do you see that "attempt to control tone or volume" and what results do you mean come out of it? Have Lachenals claimed ( in adverts or otherwise) that there was such an intention involved in the pattern design? Wheatstone #35074 Chris, looking at the photos of 35074 I can't see anything particular with "the overall shape of the patterned part of the end" so I have to ask you again what "attempt to control tone or volume" you see there.The fretwork seems to be rather spread out and much the same on both sides - contrary to the said feature existing with some Duets having reduced fretwork at the left side.

Priorities differ...I prefer a mellower tone myself if the noise can be eliminated.Just as I can't stand fingernail noises from some guitar players... Definitely a reality and an important factor.The true Wheatstone motives may remain obscure. Their combined material buttons break pretty often and wooden pins are worn and buttons have to be replaced while all-metal buttons last forever. If using ideal button measures and tolerances there shouldn't be much of that rattle between button stem and the hole. I haven't checked carefully but I have a feeling that the top line Lachenals ( New Model and Edeophone) have better precision in this respect. One way to improve button stability would be using longer buttons - i.e a longer distance between action board and endplate. Longer stem pins another.Perfect bushings between endplate and button is important.For stability of the button maybe no bushing would be better.It all depends on the used measures for the parts and the idea that the end plate, holding the keyboard in place, comes off in one piece is a dubious tradition. Some early models had a smaller plate for the keyboard only. That solution might be awakened together with better arrangements to stabilize the buttons. If someone wants to experiment a little...

Yes I do think so. I have made the same reflection myself. I also think button measures and materials can have similar effects. Compare for example 5mm metal buttons with 6mm bone ones I use a very simple balance. In principle it looks like this:

If you take the case of two similar instruments; say a "Pin hole" ( Dot and Comma) fretted Wheatstone and a "normal" fretted Wheatstone from the same period, both instruments being the same internally, the difference in loudness between the two is significant. Definitely so and the opening area is much reduced with the "Pin hole". On the other hand various "baffles" ( covers underneath the endplate) may have surprisingly little effect sometimes.They may limit the airflow and thus the sound volume too and reduce higher frequences making the sound more mellow. This may have had some importance concerning the reduced left hand fretwork with Duets. It is firstly the higher frequences which are possibly affected by covers or no fretwork. In the lower octaves of the Duet you expect less effect. Musical instruments have always had more or less visual attraction.A bit strange in a way I think since it ought to be only sound that matters for the listener and for the performer the function too - but the beauty? As a decorative object of course... a nice piece of furniture? I do understand the craftsman however who wants to produce one unique and beautiful object rather than massproducing indifferent ones.

'True' of course but we do find numerous examples when mass production has come up with inferior solutions that survive 'for ever' since people don't ask for expensive quality - don't we? Agree - but that is the result from the mechanically inferior cranking ( if not symmetrical so that it balances) of the arm and not primarily related to the lever/post connection type. With a straight (or balanced) lever and a good saddle there should be no problem. Completely agreeable - but concerning the annoying noises mostly coming from pads and buttons not even good condition always helps and you would wish that better constructions had come up.Pads are generally too hard and buttons mostly too unstable.Rather easy to fix by some modifications of the design.

If you cover half of the fretted area of an instrument with fretwork all over the end plate you will probably find that the effect on the volume is not as great as you expect. There are Duet Concertinas with less fretwork at the left side but I wonder if that really was meant to balance the volume or just an economic consequence of no need for (costly) fretwork with no acoustic importance. Where do you see that "attempt to control tone or volume" and what results do you mean come out of it? Have Lachenals claimed ( in adverts or otherwise) that there was such an intention involved in the pattern design?

A very personal matter and depending on playing style.If you hit the button straight and not from an angle a flat button ought to be more comfortable at least if it isn't too sharp at the edge but just a little bit rounded. All depends on the diameter of course.Your computer keys are flat or concave (!). Would you prefer having them domed?? Certainly? I would not say so. I think a dome with a circular profile of the same diameter as the button is NOT comfortable and fingers slip easily. An elliptical profile may be a lot better and I believe most domed Wheatstone metal cap keys have a circular profile with larger diameter than the key and a rounded edge.But as I said - if you hit the key straight a flat top (or concave if larger diameter)likely is more comfortable. "Forgiving to play". I don't know - depends on what you mean.If your fingering is not very exact a key with a flat top is easier to catch (but with some discomfort) and then more "forgiving" than a domed one you slip away from while forgiving your mistake by causing less pain. Among the common concertina variants I would say 6+ mm diam flat bone buttons with a rounded edge - common with some "cheap" Anglos or German models - are a lot more comfortable than the more exclusive domed "improvements".

My point firstly was that there is no evidence supporting the presumption ("these noises are usually attributed to the non- riveted action") that noise ("audible click") with the hook type is caused by the lever getting loose in the connection with the post and clatter back.If you can't see it and can't hear it ( or has anyone really?) it has no relevance.The possible additional knowledge from "very sophisticated hi speed photography etc." wouldn't change practise either even IF you might detect a very short but not audible escape and return by the lever. Maybe so, but there is always a conflict between technical and economical demands.Some of the hook actions shown in that article are very sophisticated and some are really primitive, seemingly designed merely to reduce costs.Technically speaking solutions common in clockworks ( what about a 48 ruby concertina..?)would be ideal but if it wouldn't matter musically so what? The hooked actions probably are noisier generally when being worn.In theory (again) a more stable lever/post connection might reduce rattle in general but as has been said the greatest part of the noises come from keys and pads and those can only be cured by measures involving the keys and pads themselves. ?? But that is an obvious defect in the lever/key connection and not a "problem with the hook type of action" itself! There are lots of different levers and keys and we can not compare "action" sometimes referring only to the lever/post construction and sometimes to the whole mechanism: endplate-key-board-lever-post-pad-(endplate again) The practical consequence when trying to find the source of a noise is just being methodical and to examine the whole chain of possible villains.

There is no extra (spring) force necessary to hold the lever in place! Technically the most important determinant for spring pressure is to secure that the pads are air-tight. What the player notices is the button touch pressure which better be the same all over the keyboard and usually 50+ grams I think for almost all concertinas ( unless someone for obscure reasons has reduced it). If the button pressure (50+ grams) IS the same as the constructor has intended that is enough anyway to hold the lever in place.If you reduce the spring pressure with a riveted action you will just the same come to a point when pads start to leak. I know that some players want a "lighter action". With an entirely different construction that might be possible to achieve without disadvantages but not with the traditional concertina design. "Hard to believe" since I haven't managed to find any evidence. What you are saying may sound theoretically reasonable, but when testing it in practise I simply have not been able to produce that "audible click" despite trying hard.Only when reducing the spring force down to a button touch of ca 20grams ( that is very low and pads leak so it is not purposeful) 'maybe' it is possible to provoke loose contact between lever and post - but no noise. "Fast play" doesn't alter the situation since I also tried testing repetitive beats on one button and not until more than 2500 beats/minute there was some sign that the contact was lost.Nobody plays that fast... This however does not contradict the reputation that some action constructions are noiser than others but if we compare instruments which are 100 years old wear and tear probably causes some bias...We need at least two exact twin instruments comparing just one factor at a time to get a fair chance coming to safe conclusions.

You definitely can reduce the pad noise a great deal by using softer (and thicker) pads. Made from various kinds of synthetic foam for example. The problem is that measures of original constructions mostly do not allow the greater thickness. I wonder why it is like that since pad clattering IS a real nuisance with many concertinas.

Thanks Chris, I checked your site but I don't manage to identify anything on the 'concertina-Chidleys' we were talking about. The line including Edward Senior - Junior etc. Just the tree over the Rock Chidley family ( sadly very difficult to read and print to a readable format). Have I missed some entry at the site? or have I missed some information hidden in the foliage?

It has to be *very* light then doesn't it? So light that the pad doesn't seal either? And if it actually gets loose for a very short moment does it really cause any noise? In theory harder springs of course keep things better in place but as I said above I doubt that it has any importance unless initially so light that nothing works anyway. It is also hard to believe that riveted vs non-riveted construction as such has anything to do with the action noises generally.The only major problem with the lever/post connection I think comes up with the short curved levers on the top row of anglos causing the lever to twist which might be cured by a riveted ( or otherwise more stable) connection. The "click,slap,slop" I think is expected to be generated by other parts hitting each other, firstly related to the buttons like you both said.