wunks

Two things I've noticed when playing the viola. First when I play a higher C the open low C sounds noticibly as well. Do you feel this is entirely from the common bridge plate connection? I'm curious because I recently acquired a Tromba Marina (medieval drone/harmonics instrument I'm guessing that as a luthier you know about) It has a main string about 5 feet long that is bowed as harmonic increments are touched with the thumb. It crosses a semi-floating small bridge (one end curves down like a witch's nose and hovers just a tad above the sound plate to create a buzz) well down at the bottom end. There are two shorter sympathetic drones adjacent to but below the plane of the main string where they cannot be reached by the bow. They sound as the main is bowed. Given the tiny and remote bridge contact of the main to the sound plate, it seems intuitive to me that they are picking up the main vibes through the air by virtue of their proximity to the main. Second, to play the higher notes of fiddle tunes on the viola I have to get up the neck into 2nd and 3d position. Even though the notes are the same as on the fiddle the tone quality is much richer. I attribute this to the slightly longer scale, slightly thicker string and slightly larger box. Is any of this applicable to the concertina to enhance tone? Thanx.

Before posting this I sat down with my boxes and worked on some G and D fiddle tunes. They landed nicely in the lower treble range and the overlap on duet is very useful. My preference for the tenor end of things is of course subjective, and I'll be coaxing my ear up the scale. It's interesting that you comment on "switching between the two types" because it really does feel like I'm holding two instruments; as if I have a viola in the left hand and a violin in the right. It dawned on me while playing the viola last night that it is indeed an entirely different beast than the violin. I just acquired it but can play fiddle tunes simply by reverse(?) transposing....playing in G by fingering as if in D on fiddle and stretching out a bit. one must go up the neck into 2nd or 3d position to complete the tune however. playing in C keeps one more in the center of the range. So when you're playing a fiddle tune what are you doing with the lower notes for harmony/rhythm?

One further observation. I played viola last night for a contra dance because we had 2 fiddlers, button accordian and a piano. With box and bow cornering the lead, and piano below, it was a delight to fill the gap. It struck me while playing that I was in exactly the same range as is most comfortable on my duet centered in C. However the fiddle comparison may work for other configurations, for my C box viola seems best.

It's an interesting instrument. I bought it at Crabb's in London in the late 60's early 70's. I Knew nothing about concertinas except that I wanted to play one. After experiencing Sticker Shock I was directed to this one with Geffory (I Think) explaining that if I had no preference or prior knowledge, It would do nicely as it was not a sought after system and therefore much cheaper ( I have the receipts along with a note chart somewhere). The metal ends are flat with only an inch or so of fretwork and a large button field that has some space on the bass side for more buttons. Inside it also has some extra space for about 3 sets of bass notes. I haven't worked out the exact noting but the 2 extra notes seem to be added to the overlap. The F# thumb key (standard on the Jeffries, I think) is an outlier top left. The bass row on the bottom left doesn't match the Jeff, which gives me a nice low G, but instead goes to a low F. The instrument is centered on C but seems to be set up to play in horn keys (?) with the bass accidentals including F and B flat. it shows up in Wheatstone's ledger without much comment around 1930 (thanx). My speculation is a custom job for a marching band, orchestral use or jazz. I'm thinking of filling up the bass side but I hesitate to physically alter it if it is historically significant. Maybe just replace the low F with G for now.

I have two. A Jeffries 51 button that is 6 1/4" across the flats and a Wheatstone/Jeffries duet that is 53 buttons and 8 1/2"

Thanx. Reed frame or shoe. Is the reed pan the same as what Alex is calling the action board?

Don, we did get to touch on some of this before getting side tracked, and Wolf gave us some information on bending notes. You may be aware of a u-tube video showing 7 (I think) ways to play a tremolo on the concertina you'll see it if you search Tremomo/concertina. Most triplets and other grace notes are readily transferred with the exception of some non-sequential finger rolls, sometimes 5 rapid notes long that I sometimes use for jigs but I suspect they'll come once I get up to speed. A rapid single grace note here and there sounds great as does a short touch on the bass like a fiddler reaching down for a quick "zoom" on the open G string. I haven't figured out how to play a glissade (noting without pressing the string all the way down to the finger board; my definition), but waltzes, where I would use it most are lovely on the concertina anyway. See fantastic Canadian fiddler John Showman of Lonesome Ace String Band use it on "Mexican Cowboy" u-tube. I recently acquired a rosewood Lachenal EC Tutor that needs restoration but I would rather make some sort of a swap, hopefully for a Jeff duet in similar condition, nearly impossible I know. I really like the duet and don't want to switch. I would like one in modern pitch of the smaller size though. The Wheatstone feels cumbersome to play (8.5" as opposed to 6.25" for the Jeff). I have lots of instruments to parlay and I don't like to keep them out of other players hands if I'm not using them. I have thought of having one made if there were a suitable maker willing to tackle such a thing and It would have wooden ends! Is there any thing else specific that comes to mind Don? I;m sure other fiddlers will have a different take than mine.

Shoes it is then. And do reed "pans" or reed "frames" as referred to by mdarton above mean a different part?

"Shoes"?

Little John. Thanx for that observation. I expected as much but I didn't recall a wooden brace plate when I had the Wheatstone apart years ago. It's been an interesting side conversation but I'm going to pause my experimental efforts for now. I just don't have the time at the moment. I'm enjoying the topic though and there does seem to be some support for the idea of harmonics playing a role in tone quality and "unifying" the instrument somehow. I'll try the sound post idea at a later date unless someone beats me to it and of course other schemes have popped into my head. How 'bout a wire connecting the reed blocks at their bases? how 'bout rounding the reed tips? I seem to recall from reading about aluminum boat fabrication that sharp corners and edges create nodes of vibratory " dissonance" resulting in premature failure of parts. There's a reference to "fishtail reeds" in Don's resonator thread. Comments?

I got my instruments out this morning with the intent of experimenting with a sound post. Both of them however have connections from the end plate to (perhaps) the action board other than for the strap ends. The Jeffries has two small screws spaced in the button pattern. I'm seeing 5! tiny rivet ends in the button pattern of the Wheatstone (larger instrument around 8.5 inches). The fret work of both is too tight to insert a sound post or determine, even with a pen light, what they're connected to; post or brace. I don't want to go further and open them up. I yield the floor.

Could start another "discussion" but it's the same instrument and refers more to the type of music and /or context in which it's played. The only modifications I'm aware of are a flattening of the top of the bridge by some to make better use of open string drones, triple stops and chords. Also different tunings of the strings, often in conjunction with the former. Fiddlers often dispense with a shoulder rest and/or hold it against the chest. They usually hold the bow differently releasing the pinky from the frog end of the bow and sometimes choking up on it. Beginners are sometimes taught to play with the bowing arm elbow resting on a table to establish a desired wristy technique. There are gourd and cigar box fiddles but they might just as well be called gourd and cigar box violins. Give me a Stradovarious, or any fine concert violin and I'll be happy as a clam sawin' out "Fop Eared Mule"!

In my second response to Don I did say I thought Strident was the wrong word.

Perhaps true but easily testable.

Don, I just read through the resonator thread. Thanks, maybe we can all come up with a solution if we keep the conversation going. I am starting to go to the right hand more as I go out of C and to more fiddle tunes in G,D, and A. Using the right for drones, counter point and such is starting to progress. I just let the "tina tell me what it wants to play for a tune. Speaking of inversion, I recently picked it up wrong? way 'round and it took me a while to realize I had it upside down! The finger patterns ,at least for the Jeffries are similar either way.

It'll be a couple of days before I can try it but I will post the results. If my understanding of the Physics is correct, a musical tone is composed of not just the vibration frequency of the note it'self but harmonics and sympathetic vibes as well. That is why placing a finger lightly in the middle on a string sounding "C" for instance will stop the note from end to end but two sympathetic higher octave notes will continue to sound. Other spots or nodes will result in other harmonics so the musical "tone"C is comprised of all these harmonics while the academic "note"C is just the one frequency. I'm sure you've listened to the fantastic Mongolian throat singers who can separate tones into harmonics as they chant. It may be that the higher reeds of the concertina are too short to contain accessible extra harmonics, in which case a sound post may allow them to more easily communicate with the other sympathetic reeds and set them buzzing. you wouldn't hear it as separate notes, just a fuller sound. I have a viola the low open C string of which will not shut up when I play a higher C.

Hi Don. the answer is yes to all your questions. Just playing pah is something I came up with after playing lead for many years and suddenly finding myself in a Blugrass/ Old timey band doing lots of fast accompaniment to unfamiliar tunes and rhythms. I'm sure others must use this technique but most fiddlers I've heard "Chug" on the down beat or oom. Jazz piano players use it as well. Emphasizing the back beat like this frees up the melody, to my ear anyway, instead of everyone pounding away on the down beat. Oom pa has its place but not every thing needs to sound like Octoberfest!

Hello Wolfe. A fairly easy test has occurred to me while discussing this. I'll try ( or anyone can) fitting a sound post for the hi side, and move it around a bit looking for a sweet spot. wooden ends (mahogany has decent acoustical qualities) might work better but if it's going to work at all there should be some effect with my metal ones. I'll let you know. I hadn't searched bending as it just came up in the conversation sorry.

No apologies necessary Don. I've had them for years but just recently started playing them. I'm progressing fairly rapidly because I already have the music in my head. I do tend to play in the lower register both because the fiddle notes with the left hand and because the range of the cello, viola, French horn etc. is most pleasing to me. It also helps that both instruments are centered on C which is great for song accompaniment, again, mostly with the left hand. The notes for most common fiddle tunes in G,D and A stray beyond the overlap of about 5 notes on the duet and into dog whistle territory and the fingerings are not as intuitive. I think I came off as a little harsh toward the upper end acoustics. It's a wonderful sounding instrument overall but when you open one up there's nothing comparable to the violin as far as an attempt at enhancement of tone. It's almost like it's just a pretty little bellows box to hold the reeds. It gets me thinking when I see some of the modern efforts with F holes instead of intricate fret work...why not experiment with some instrument quality Spruce and a sound post and maybe a bass bar as an attempt to improve tone. Bending notes.....I did it once by accident. I tried to make it happen a bit last night after my post with limited success. I can manage to coax a slight bend and i think it could be done. Think of a harmonica reed.....similar thing. You're changing the reed vibration by varying the air flow around it. With that in mind try a vibrato by shaking the bellows with the free hand. Slow it down and what have you got? I'm not there yet but I'm betting it's doable.

I have a 51 button Jeffries duet and a 53 button Wheatstone Jeffries pattern duet both of which I purchased (separately) in the late 60's early 70's both metal ended. Both are centered on C but the Jeffries is apparently in old philharmonic, a tad below modern C#. The Wheatstone is from around 1930 and maintains the Jeff pattern except for the low end and in having more overlap. Maybe strident is the wrong word. It's loud enough. I hesitate to use "dog whistle" but it's a thinness of tone similar to what you get from a poorly made violin. I may catch it for this but I suspect the wood and other materials used in concertina construction are too dense to resonate much with the higher register. Good fiddles are constructed with carved spruce tops that have the growth rings oriented from wide at the low end to narrower under the highstrings. The feet of the bridge are honed to an exact match for the top and a new one is meticulously eased at it's corners and edges. There is a sound post carefully fitted to tie it all together. As I write this I'm more certain this is the problem. Remove the sound post from a violin and it sounds flat as an unplugged Stratocaster.....or the highest notes on a concertina. I think the concertina resonates wonderfully in the range of a viola; with the higher notes on a fiddle... not so much. Has anyone tried introducing an internal spruce resonator board? Now that I've bashed it, as to expressiveness, I find the concertina extremely so. Is it better than the violin? Different is a better word. It can oom pah or play a slow air. It excels at vocal accompaniment. I love wandering around a usually acapella tune exploring rhythms and harmonies to go with my voice. a nice slow version of "Rolling Down To Old Maui" is an example. I even bent a note like on a harmonica by accident while torturing a passage on "The Spring Of '65". Has anyone ever used this in their playing? So yes, I think it's on par with a fiddle for expression.

A response to a request from another thread. As a fiddle player for fifty years and a duet player for around six? months I'm surprised and delighted that my fiddle techniques are readily transferable to my 'tina. My only disappointment in this regard is that the higher notes are less strident than the violin which may limit it's use as a lead instrument for much of the dance music I play. I don't use a whole lot of ornamentation but I can see that adding some up high could help. The overlap of notes on the duet could also be of use of use, although I haven't tried it yet, similar to mirroring an open string with the forth finger; a common fiddle technique. The bellows is very similar to the bow in its function and can duplicate just about anything I can do on fiddle. I tend to play in the middle of the bow and with the bellows at half way. I wouldn't play a long phrase with one bow stroke, usually changing after two notes, or sometimes three for something fast like a reel or a hoedown. Same with the bellows. Having enough air never becomes an issue. I use the bellows for same note triplets and a little mild vibrato. I'm stopping here because that seems like enough to start a conversation and I know others will chime in.

I'd be happy to have that discussion Don but I don't want to hijack bogheathen's thread. I have to step out for a bit but I'll post a new one later, or send you a PM of you prefer.

I have to differ on this Chris. the fiddle being a single note instrument for the most part, we learn to drive the rhythm with the melody. The oom is redundant for me on the concertina. Accenting the down beat melody note and just playing pah frees things up and works with a wide range of music.

As a fiddler learning concertina, I find the left knee plant works well. If you're standing, try a walking stick with a crook.

Maple, whether soft or hard can have beautiful figure with great stability. I have a fiddle with a phenomenal two piece book matched bird's eye back with no cracks or flaws at all.